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GrumpyGOP
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As to guns having gotten easier to produce at home, I agree, and the specter of 3D printing firearms and critical firearm components will only grow with time. That is a novel issue that will require novel solutions. I still think there's value, in the short- to medium-term, in trying to reduce the number of traditional firearms through coercive rather than compulsory means.

Quote :
"Which is why a better avenue towards reducing gun violence is through changing our approach to the drug war."


I would dispute that either is "better." Reducing the number and easy availability of guns on the one hand, and changing our approach to the drug war the other, are both necessary and complementary steps to significantly reducing gun violence. Other issues would ideally be addressed as well, in an ideal world, but these are the big ones.

Quote :
"CA has banned all sorts of guns over the years; the manufacturers always develop new stuff to be compliant."


Another advantage to taxing all newly produced and sold firearms (and, to be comprehensive here, critical firearm components) - there's no getting around it with tweaking the design. Do bullets come out? Can bullets come out? Then the excise tax applies.

8/16/2019 10:33:25 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"I would dispute that either is "better.""


It is better in the sense that I think there wouldn't be just vehement opposition to it--I think a broad, bipartisan solution could be achieved. I think it would also have far greater efficacy, coupled with criminal justice reform. Guns are extremely durable goods, and there are several hundred million in circulation here. Drugs are extremely non-durable...they are consumable, and have a shelf-life, to boot. They require a steady inflow. Take the profit motive out, curtail the black market, and a staggering amount of violent crime would dry up.

I mean, holy shit, the first time there was a big push for gun control, with the 1934 NFA, it was basically in concert with the 21st Amendment, repealing Prohibition. Once the impetus for the organize crime went away, it didn't make any difference how many bullets came out per trigger squeeze--they weren't doing much shooting.

Now, mass shootings are a different thing, and they are horrific and spectacular and drive an emotional response, but that's not how policy should be decided. What I'm proposing would have vastly more of an impact, but nobody cares about hundreds of young minorities killed every week. I don't think they really even care about the tangential crime that does affect Middle America, because getting shot in a robbery is just as bad as getting shot in a mass shooting, but it isn't as much of an inexplicable specter.

Regarding gun bans, why in the hell would you expend an immense amount of political capital, towards an end that has already been tried before relatively recently with dubious-at-best effectiveness, with every reason to believe it is far more poorly positioned to yield benefits today, to make an attempt at solving a vanishingly small part of the problem, when there is a solution that has been successfully implemented in a closely analogous way before, that would impact the overwhelming part of the problem, that would probably enjoy support from both parties, that we need to do anyway irrespective of gun violence?


_____________________________________________________________________

I wouldn't even worry about 3d printing, although that is out there, too. At this point, there are dozens of solutions to enable quick and easy machining of your own receivers and frames for common semi-auto rifles and pistols with common tools.

Just like the '94 AWB supercharged the proliferation of the weapons it sought to restrict, the more recent efforts have driven substantial development and proliferation of the ability to easily "roll your own" guns and ammunition. These guns are not even serialized, much less subject to any paper trail.

Why don't we fucking stop making an intractable problem worse by flailing? Why don't we focus on the drug war, criminal justice/prison reform, keeping guns from crazy people, and maybe some sort of licensing/purchase permit system, on a generally "shall-issue" basis, and not tied to specific firearm serial numbers (much like the NC pistol permit system)?

8/17/2019 12:45:08 AM

TreeTwista10
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re: magazine capacity limits, a piece of plastic with a spring in it is not bulky or difficult to manufacture or import

8/17/2019 12:49:26 AM

theDuke866
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or sheetmetal.

never mind that whofuckingknows how many of them are already in circulation. hell, i don't even know how many I have. I doubt I could tell you to the nearest 10...and I've got nothing compared to most people who are really into guns.

8/17/2019 12:56:39 AM

GrumpyGOP
yovo yovo bonsoir
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It's true that we're probably closer to being able to reach a "broad, bipartisan solution" on drugs, because the political culture is moving that way. But it's also moving that way on gun control. The NRA's view of the 2nd Amendment doesn't become more popular with each of these shootings.

Guns are durable. That's not a downside. That allows us to gradually reduce the number of civilian firearms without seizing or banning them. You can pinch off the flow of new guns onto the market and there's still some 340 million of them out there to buy, sell, and trade. I don't need to risk prison or massive fines by buying guns on the black market, because there's still legal guns around for me to get. This would stand in opposition to how illegal drugs are currently treated, where your only option is a criminal one.

Quote :
"Now, mass shootings are a different thing, and they are horrific and spectacular and drive an emotional response, but that's not how policy should be decided."


The emotional response has knock-on effects that negatively affect society and merit a policy response. You like it that your daughter has to do active shooter drills at school?

I don't think there's a lot of value in trying to create sweeping policies just to target mass shootings, which are, as you point out comparatively rare causes of gun death. But there's even less value in pretending the problem doesn't exist.

8/17/2019 9:33:00 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Why don't we focus on the drug war, criminal justice/prison reform, "



You keep bringing this up. The drug war, mass incarceration, and our mass gun culture all serve the same purpose: To suppress the political purchase of minority communities. The criminalization of drugs puts black and brown bodies in jail, and the obsessive gun culture simultaneously paints minorities as dangerous while portraying officers and white vigilantes as virtuous.

If you removed the drug and prison war from the equation, then you would have to come up with another means of depriving minorities of their full political agency.

8/18/2019 1:20:27 PM

beatsunc
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^
Quote :
"If you removed the drug and prison war from the equation, then you would have to come up with another means of depriving minorities of their full political agency.

"


wth

8/18/2019 3:49:13 PM

synapse
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https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

8/18/2019 8:45:49 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"If you removed the drug and prison war from the equation, then you would have to come up with another means of depriving minorities of their full political agency."

They'd just come up with another war, such as the war on guns to mass incarcerate minorities.

Progressives just can't not be "progressive"

[Edited on August 19, 2019 at 8:51 AM. Reason : .,.]

8/19/2019 8:50:52 AM

dtownral
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you're confusing progressive and liberal

8/19/2019 9:17:21 AM

NyM410
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https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1163637669768900613?s=21

Hey. Stop acting like Trump gives a fuck. Stop writing stories about his desire to do gun control after every disease addled word that comes from that jello mess he has above his face. How have we not learned this as a country yet.

8/20/2019 9:43:22 AM

utowncha
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can we trade guns for greenland?

8/21/2019 7:18:15 AM

HCH
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Quote :
"https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/white-house-considers-controversial-plan-on-mental-illness-and-mass-shooting/2019/09/09/eb58b6f6-ce72-11e9-87fa-8501a456c003_story.html"


Trump is considering a plan to monitor phones of the mentally ill to help stop mass shootings. Obviously, on it's face, this is a violation of the 4th amendment and will be struck down. But I am curious what the anti-2A crowd feel about this? If it is shown that monitoring phones will prevent mass shootings, do you think it's worth implementation, even if it violates our constitutional rights?

9/9/2019 3:33:34 PM

Bullet
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"Anti-2A crowd!!!!!1" - what does that even mean?

9/9/2019 3:35:29 PM

HCH
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Lets just go with your boy Beto's definition and call it a mandatory "buy back" of "assault' weapons.

9/9/2019 3:46:30 PM

Bullet
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"my boy"? That's a dumb assumption.

9/9/2019 3:52:50 PM

NyM410
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Expanding background checks is basically Minority Report. Good point..

9/9/2019 3:54:28 PM

dtownral
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It's not at all surprising that the "dont tread on me" supporters are okay with being tread all over as long as it means guns arent slightly harder to get

9/9/2019 4:01:08 PM

HCH
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Not sure if that's directed to me, or... I apologize if I was somehow unclear above. I do not support the violation of any of our rights, whether it's the second or the fourth that is being considered in the link above.

9/9/2019 4:16:18 PM

JesusHChrist
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Gun nuts are right wing reactionary dipshits who have no real philosophical or moral conviction.

They want to rule and maintain their political and socio-economic advantage by force. That's it. That's the entirety of their political worldview. Hence the need for guns. Hence the worship of the military and law enforcement. And hence the "I'm just asking questions" attitude about blatant civil rights abuses that would never target them or their cohorts.

9/10/2019 12:34:08 AM

utowncha
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gun nuts* are reactionary dipshits. we apparently have a sizable quantity of left wingers too.

[Edited on September 10, 2019 at 12:15 PM. Reason : cant spell]

9/10/2019 12:15:06 PM

wdprice3
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Quote :
"I do not support the violation of any of our rights, whether it's the second or the fourth that is being considered in the link above."


snicker.gif

9/10/2019 1:11:55 PM

CaelNCSU
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It's been argued that rights have responsibilities associated with them. Seems the 2nd amendment has the clearest example--own a gun: serve in the militia.

9/11/2019 9:26:20 AM

utowncha
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Whoa now Beto!

9/13/2019 7:41:54 AM

beatsunc
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Thanks to guys like Beto gun sales up 15%

9/13/2019 10:31:21 AM

rjrumfel
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Beto is an idiot.

Not only did gun sales increase, he's given the Trump team a huge talking point. I swear, for a group of people who hate this man so much, they really want to see four more years of him as POTUS.

9/13/2019 10:58:00 AM

A Tanzarian
drip drip boom
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"They're gonna take yer guns!" was going to be a talking point no matter what Beto or anyone else said.

Just like last year. And the year before that. And the year before that. And the year before that...

9/13/2019 11:07:04 AM

rjrumfel
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Yup. But by and large the words never actually came out of anyone's mouth. Until now.

Mandatory buybacks is the same thing as seizure of personal property. It will go over like a turd in an punchbowl.

9/13/2019 11:09:04 AM

dtownral
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years of doing nothing -> they're gonna take your guns
wanting background checks for all sales - > they're gonna take your guns
banning new "assault weapon" items -> they're gonna take your guns
magazine capacity limits -> they're gonna take your guns
voluntary buybacks -> they're gonna take your guns

who the fuck cares if they accuse anyone of wanting to take guns, it makes no difference

9/13/2019 11:13:39 AM

A Tanzarian
drip drip boom
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I agree that buybacks is a proposal that won't pass made by a candidate who won't win.

But let's not pretend this wasn't going to be the GOP talking point all along. The most anodyne statements will always be twisted for maximum outrage.

[Edited on September 13, 2019 at 11:21 AM. Reason : ^ pretty much]

9/13/2019 11:17:43 AM

horosho
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Beto was bold and brave. Centrist democrats generally don't want to do anything meaningful but want to pretend like they are angry there is no solution. Solving the problem might alienate the people causing the problem.

Its the same as their position on climate change, healthcare, economic reform, etc.

9/14/2019 8:39:17 PM

JesusHChrist
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51170252


A pro-gun rally....in Virginia...planned to be held on Martin Luther King Jr Day....organized by right-wing militias.


Do people seriously still want to pretend that American gun culture isn't overtly racist, counter-revolutionary, and openly right-wing?

These people are waiting for a reason....ANY reason, to project violence on people of color, women, religious minorities and left or liberal voices.

1/21/2020 2:17:29 AM

beatsunc
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^

gun control is racist AF

hell, in 1967 even the NRA supported a statewide ban on open carry in California after armed members of the Black Panther Party started patrolling city streets to counter police brutality.

1/21/2020 8:06:53 AM

FroshKiller
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Opportunists supporting gun control as a method for maintaining white supremacy does not make gun control racist in se.

1/21/2020 9:14:22 AM

Pupils DiL8t
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Quote :
"gun control The NRA is racist AF"


FTFY

1/21/2020 9:24:57 AM

marko
Tom Joad
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Parading around in full tactical gear cosplay really sends the message that it's for defensive or hunting purposes.

Sidenote: Imagine if everyone at the Football Hall of Fame showed up to the dinner in helmets and pads.

1/21/2020 9:27:09 AM

beatsunc
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^^yeah in 1967, when they were supporting gun control

1/21/2020 9:56:53 AM

JesusHChrist
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I've discussed in this very thread how gun control is used to suppress radical/marxist/social movements like the black panther party while explicitly right-wing and reactionary movements are never suppressed on the same manner.

That furthers my claim that American gun culture is racist and counter revolutionary, it doesn't disprove it like you seem to think

1/21/2020 1:36:15 PM

marko
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https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-second-amendment-was-ratified-to-preserve-slavery/

1/21/2020 7:07:53 PM

horosho
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I'm all for protesting and rioting against power structures because they hold power through order but to riot against an individual, a little powerless girl is just wrong. You need to be able to explain why she's wrong and move on. Kicking and screaming only confirms her side's claim that you have no argument. I shed a tear watching the footage because of what it represents.

The students should have been able to let them talk and easily dunk on their ideas. I thought TWW was bad but these college students yelling screaming and throwing things at other young people just because their ideas suck was especially disheartening and proof we are done as a nation. I mean, this is our intellectual class and they can't help but feel so threatened by an individual's bad ideas that they don't even refute. Imagine how they respond in an actual difficult situation. We are toast.

2/18/2020 9:40:45 PM

NyM410
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What is this even in reference to?

2/18/2020 11:04:17 PM

daaave
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He's defending Kaitlin Bennett lol

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/02/18/gun-girl-kaitlin-ohio-university/

2/18/2020 11:06:30 PM

horosho
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Wait so are you falsely insinuating I'm defending her positions? or laughing at me for defending her ability to walk around without being assaulted? or are you intentionally leaving it up for the interpretation of people who might be confused?
Quote :
" You need to be able to explain why she's wrong and move on."

I spent all of 2019 trying to claim the threats against Joel Patrick were super fringe or possibly non-existent and today just proved me wrong.

2/19/2020 1:22:53 AM

utowncha
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shes not a journalist and she wasnt assaulted. even if she was the overwhelming opinion here is nazis deserve it. people typically laugh at you because youre so bad at making a point.

2/19/2020 6:22:35 AM

beatsunc
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Quote :
"shes not a journalist and she wasnt assaulted. even if she was the overwhelming opinion here is nazis deserve it"


wtf are you talking about. she's an infowars clown, the nazis seized the all the guns they could find

[Edited on February 19, 2020 at 7:03 AM. Reason : v]

2/19/2020 6:58:28 AM

Pupils DiL8t
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I know, you never see white nationalists toting guns.

2/19/2020 11:35:29 AM

synapse
play so hard
58168 Posts
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Y'all got #earl'd

2/19/2020 11:43:04 AM

horosho
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Throwing water and trash at someone is borderline assault. I don't know if it is or not but its definitely not a good way to treat someone who didn't do anything hateful.

She's simply spouting off things we were all taught in school and gets threatened for supporting the constitution. Its the constitution that gave us the second amendment, not kaitlin bennett but she is an easy target while the constitution is not. That makes it cowardly. Direct that energy towards the school system, legal system and constitution itself.

The fact that people can't distinguish the difference between condoning violence against someone and defending their views is the real problem. There is a middle ground blindspot.

2/19/2020 3:15:20 PM

daaave
All American
599 Posts
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she's a hateful troll and deserves to be ridiculed at every opportunity

2/19/2020 3:31:04 PM

dtownral
All American
26343 Posts
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good horosho moment tho, him supporting this girl is very on brand

2/19/2020 4:18:03 PM

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