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 Message Boards » » Confederate Monuments - love it or list it? Page 1 [2] 3 4 5, Prev Next  
afripino
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If we're going other countries now, I wonder how the brits feel about the statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square.

5/25/2017 2:53:54 PM

0EPII1
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/05/22/lawmaker-says-louisiana-leaders-should-be-lynched-for-taking-down-confederate-statues

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/23/opinions/stop-mainstream-lynching-opinion-love/index.html

Let's go back to the good old times when those Confederate leaders were heroes and lynching was acceptable!

5/26/2017 6:30:29 AM

GrumpyGOP
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So, I've got no particular love for any Confederate monument, and at best I can manage respect for Confederate "heroes." Even if their reasons were typically a little more noble than "Boy we love enslaving black people," they picked the wrong side and should have known better.

More than that, I'm generally not all that concerned about any publicly-funded monument. They can be nice, but they rank pretty low on my list of priorities that governments should be dealing with. Build them, tear them down, whatever, the most that it's gonna cause me is a very mild level of pride or irritation.

The only thing that gives me pause is this: the reasons people cite for tearing down Confederate monuments also apply, with very little modification, to the Founding Fathers. "Slave-owning, racist traitors" applies to both sets pretty much equally. And though the monuments as such don't mean much to me, trying to erase and discredit the founders is only a short hop away from undermining the Constitution and government they built. And those things have enough trouble these days. It doesn't matter if you undermine the Confederate Constitution. It is rightfully relegated to museums, and governs nothing.

And I'm all for the healthy appreciation of the founders' flaws. They were pretty fucked up, too. But unlike the Confederates, they built something that has done OK for itself.

5/26/2017 10:07:12 AM

NeuseRvrRat
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not a fan of public property, especially monuments

5/26/2017 7:35:17 PM

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Glad to hear you support these actions NRR

5/26/2017 7:46:05 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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i'll support any move in the right direction

5/26/2017 7:50:38 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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Quote :
"Jackson sucked in a lot of ways. I'm all for not putting his face everywhere. It burns me that he's on the $20. "


it probably would burn Jackson, too, if he was around to see his face on a central bank note

5/26/2017 10:04:15 PM

0EPII1
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GG Mayor

https://www.facebook.com/CREDO/videos/10156185738470968/

5/27/2017 1:15:51 AM

BanjoMan
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interesting, I didn't realize that UT moved the jefferson davis statue shortly after I left. They still have about four prominent confederate statues in their courtyard.

[Edited on May 27, 2017 at 5:44 AM. Reason : k]

5/27/2017 5:32:59 AM

BanjoMan
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I honestly think that there isn't shame in honoring dead war heroes, even if those people fought on the losing side.

Texas has statues of both northern and southern-leaning generals/leaders, including one from MLK. I don't really see the issue here. Are we not supposed to have respect for our enemies on the battlefield? Obviously they are willing to die for something, what was it?

5/27/2017 5:48:22 AM

dtownral
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the first one they took down in new orleans wasn't even for confederate soldiers, a lot of these monuments have nothing to do with any "heroes"

5/27/2017 1:51:54 PM

BanjoMan
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then that is OK... I guess.

If you really have a problem with a statue of Robert E. Lee, then I don't think that you know what it means to be an American.

5/27/2017 7:08:36 PM

dtownral
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so you're cool with a statue for a post-war insurrection when a racist hate group made up of confederate veterans attacked a democratically elected city that was put up by a literal white supremacist group?

Dude, you need fucking help, none of these guys are heroes and this isn't even a civil war battle


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place

[Edited on May 27, 2017 at 7:40 PM. Reason : .]

5/27/2017 7:35:14 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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5/27/2017 8:09:51 PM

BanjoMan
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^ that is not what I said . I am not all that familiar with what you are on about.

5/28/2017 11:46:03 AM

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He didn't say that you said that.

Those are his views.

5/28/2017 12:33:57 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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here's another memorial dedicated to soldiers who died fighting on the wrong side of a war:


[Edited on May 28, 2017 at 1:35 PM. Reason : similarly, many of them were conscripted]

5/28/2017 1:28:31 PM

dtownral
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the canal street battle isn't a civil war battle, it wasn't part of a war

[Edited on May 28, 2017 at 5:29 PM. Reason : .]

5/28/2017 5:29:06 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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my post was directed at confederate monuments in general (per the thread title)

the canal street battle monument isn't even really a confederate monument. more like a racist mob monument.

[Edited on May 28, 2017 at 5:31 PM. Reason : s]

5/28/2017 5:31:29 PM

dtownral
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its not the only monument like that, most of them were put up by white supremacist groups and have nothing to do with memorializing conscripts

5/28/2017 7:17:16 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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and they should all be torn down

5/28/2017 7:24:11 PM

BridgetSPK
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I dunno...eliminating symbols of an explicitly racist past seems like a fairly benign thing to do.

But what's the point? Why not just leave them up and let the kids vandalize them when they get bored in the summertime?


Are we planning to address the actual racist bullshit that persists today? Or just take down some statues to reduce city maintenance workload?

5/28/2017 11:00:49 PM

GoldieO
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Quote :
"symbols of an explicitly racist past..."


If these monuments are nothing more than symbols of an explicity racist past as you say, why did it take society until 2017 to remove them?

5/29/2017 7:40:02 AM

Cabbage
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^Seems to me you could ask that question in any year. Are you trying to make a point?

5/29/2017 9:08:58 AM

GoldieO
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Of course I'm not trying to make a point. No one here ever posts to make a point. I just randomly strung together a series of unrelated words this morning prior to having coffee.

5/29/2017 9:41:45 AM

Cabbage
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Yeah, that's what it sounded like you were doing. Just wanted to make sure.

5/29/2017 9:43:37 AM

BridgetSPK
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^^^^The average person does not have the time to learn and appreciate all the Civil War stuff that is apparently so precious to you.

And, of the people who have taken some time to explore that part of our history, many have just memorized a bunch of talking points that "prove" the South wasn't all racist (as if that's a revelation), and they get all weirdly passionate/in-your-face about it.



At any rate, your sarcastic, rhetorical, antagonistic approach is not consistent with a history buff who's about to teach us interesting stuff about Robert E. Lee. You seem more like the guy who gets cut off at the bar cause they don't want any more N-bomb situations.

5/29/2017 1:09:59 PM

GoldieO
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Ad hominem aside, you still failed to answer my question. Why did it take so long for these monuments to be removed if they are nothing more than symbols of an explicitly racist past? Does that mean everyone between the time the monuments were erected and now were supporters of this explicitly racist past also?

5/29/2017 1:31:27 PM

thegoodlife3
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the voiceless from the 20th century now have an outlet to voice themselves in the 21st century

5/29/2017 1:41:32 PM

dtownral
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of all the arguments for the monuments, this is the dumbest one i've heard so far. congratulations.

5/29/2017 1:52:59 PM

GoldieO
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Thanks. That ^ means a lot in this thread.

Or wait, were you referring to...

Quote :
"the voiceless from the 20th century now have an outlet to voice themselves in the 21st century"


[Edited on May 29, 2017 at 2:11 PM. Reason : ...]

5/29/2017 2:05:01 PM

synapse
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Could go either way really. Your strawman was particularly weak.

5/29/2017 2:31:49 PM

thegoodlife3
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either way?

5/29/2017 2:34:31 PM

GoldieO
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Really not erecting a strawman. Just asking the person who made the statement to defend it.

5/29/2017 2:49:35 PM

dtownral
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I was talking about GoldieO's astonishingly ridiculous argument

5/29/2017 3:10:24 PM

thegoodlife3
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how two people could be confused by that....

5/29/2017 3:11:48 PM

GoldieO
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Right, me asking the person who reduced a few hundred years of history to a graffiti cleanup effort to defend the statement is an astonishingly ridiculous argument. I know when I'm not wanted. Carry on in your safe space.

5/29/2017 3:23:14 PM

thegoodlife3
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what?

5/29/2017 3:42:04 PM

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Quote :
"either way"


Yeah I was being generous, and it sounded better that way

5/29/2017 4:28:45 PM

Cabbage
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If slavery in America was such a bad thing, why wasn't there a serious effort to stop it until 1860 or so?

5/29/2017 9:33:12 PM

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Quote :
"If slavery in America was such a bad thing"


Sorry you lost me there

5/29/2017 10:04:57 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"If these monuments are nothing more than symbols of an explicity racist past as you say, why did it take society until 2017 to remove them?"


"If slavery in America was such a bad thing, why wasn't there a serious effort to stop it until 1860 or so?"



Does it make sense now?

5/29/2017 10:50:03 PM

moron
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Quote :
"Does that mean everyone between the time the monuments were erected and now were supporters of this explicitly racist past also?
"


Yes. Racism in America is deep and pervasive in our society and institutions-- literally what people mean when they say "systemic racism" "white privilege" "majority systemic bias" "white fragility" and a few other associated terms. People have just put up with it over the years because they didn't see a way to successfully fight it. You should expect to see more marginalized groups stepping up against their marginalization because the election of Trump has shown that time doesn't necessarily heal these wounds, the absence of tension really doesn't mean the presence of justice.


I'll reference Isaiah Hines commenting on internet attacks of his white fragility presentation:
It’s come to my attention that this image is circulating the “Rebel Alliance” Facebook page and is generating quite a bit of confusion. Just wanted to clear up a few things. This is a picture of me, one year ago, giving my final presentation for my AP Psychology class. For this project, we were allowed to choose any psychology-related concept to research and present to the class. I chose ‘white fragility’. I stand by my presentation and the concept of white fragility and here’s why.

White fragility is a term coined by Westfield State University professor Robin DiAngelo. It refers to a mental state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive actions and biological responses. It is a well-documented psychological phenomenon and it was entirely appropriate for the assignment. My psychology teacher also fully approved of the presentation.

Part of why white fragility occurs is because we are falsely taught that racism is an issue solely of moral and immoral people rather than an issue deeply embedded in our nation's systems and institutions. We often misunderstand racism as consisting only of easily identifiable singular acts such as racial slurs, hate crimes, etc. This means that people believe if they are a good person with good morals, they are incapable of being racist. So, when white people are called out for saying or doing something racially insensitive, they believe they are being called an immoral, bad person. This explains much of the defensiveness.

In truth, as Americans, we are raised in a racist society that exists as a result of our extensive and violent history of race-based oppression. We are all socialized to have racist biases and tendencies. Saying and doing racist things by mistake does not automatically make you a bad person. Everyone will make these mistakes at some point. Instead of seeing getting called out as a personal attack on your character, I encourage people to try to see it as an opportunity to learn and grow.

The reason it is so important to understand this concept is that it can be a HUGE barrier to having effective conversations on race and racism. White fragility allows white people not to be held accountable for their words and actions, it allows white people to govern when and how racism is discussed, and it reinforces racial power dynamics, thus upholding the white supremacy within our society.

I did find it just a little funny how many of the people responding to this image with anger or indignation are actually displaying the psychological concept in action! It is absolutely possible to break the cycle and challenge or question this theory without engaging in the problematic behaviors associated with white fragility. However, it seems many people will still surrender to white fragility and become needlessly defensive and angry rather than engaging in constructive dialogue.

I’ve attached the link to my actual presentation below. While the powerpoint is far from perfect, I HIGHLY suggest everyone take a look! I'm happy to respond to any questions or concerns or just further explain this concept if anyone is interested. Just let me know!
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1n6Y-RA1NzEdj4EciCVsmnL13nATbKKUo2c43JWgoMow/edit?usp=sharing

Also, here are some links that I’ve often used when facilitating discussions on this topic. I find these pieces extremely helpful.
- http://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/download/249/116
- https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/
- http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race
- http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-53-summer-2016/feature/why-talk-about-whiteness
- https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White%20Priviledge%20Unpacking%20the%20Invisible%20Knapsack.pdf

[Edited on May 29, 2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason : ]

5/29/2017 11:02:33 PM

JCE2011
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So the entire premise of that Marxist presentation is that white people are fragile and it prevents "constructive dialogue"...

Yet if we have learned one thing from this election, it is that the regressive left has zero tolerance for differing opinions, and will do anything in their power to silence differing viewpoints.

"Constructive dialogue" is the last thing your side wants. If you wanted that, you wouldn't approach every single social issue through the regressive lens of identity politics and collectivism. "ALL PEOPLE OF RACE _____ ARE THIS" = Not productive.

What a joke. CHASS has become a Marxist indoctrination camp.... I can't believe people pay money for that.

[Edited on May 30, 2017 at 10:40 AM. Reason : .]

5/30/2017 10:39:31 AM

afripino
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^such fragility

5/30/2017 11:56:43 AM

JCE2011
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People who hide behind identity politics to push their Marxist bullshit are pretty fragile bruh



INDOCTRINATED BY THE CHURCH OF SOCIAL JUSTICE

[Edited on May 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM. Reason : sjw]

5/30/2017 12:07:59 PM

afripino
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that powerpoint hurt your fee fees?

[Edited on May 30, 2017 at 1:12 PM. Reason : u fragile]

5/30/2017 1:12:35 PM

JCE2011
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No, I just get triggered when I realize people stupid enough to make a powerpoint like that exist.

5/30/2017 1:27:45 PM

afripino
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^u from fragile rock? cuz u fragile.

5/30/2017 5:06:30 PM

JCE2011
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Yes I am very fragile when I see kids going into Marxist indoctrination camps. It is everything that is wrong with America.

College used to be where you go to learn something that will allow you to contribute to society, now kids go there, study worthless social "science" topics AKA Marxism, and instead of contributing to society they attack it as they become worthless parasites.

Then when they graduate with their degree in Pangendered AfroAmerican Sex Dance Therapy, they cant get a job... so they are OPPRESSED! My professor was right, capitalism is evil, the patriarchy! White supremacy! Why am I not making 6 figures to be a diversity counselor!?!?! Is it because I'm black? It is! If you don't like what I'm saying it is because you are fragile! You just want to stop a productive dialogue!!!!

5/31/2017 11:59:53 AM

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