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 Message Boards » » Confederate Monuments - love it or list it? Page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6, Prev Next  
dtownral
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next ones to tear down:

Keep Confederate monuments in Raleigh, state commission recommends
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article217124550.html

8/24/2018 12:22:47 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Yeah I can't get behind an ideology that is the same as libertarianism apart from aesthetics."


Nahh, they're different. "Libertarians" have been hood-winked by corporate America (read: the right-wing) into believing that their ideological beliefs of upholding the free market is somehow a radical departure from the unfettered capitalism that we currently see. Their concept of liberty revolves around the defense of private property, whereas an anarchists concept of liberty revolves around the dismantling of social hierarchies. American libertarians usually align with the right, but anarchists always align with the left, because they are socialist in ideology. Again, it should be stressed that the American "libertarian" movement hijacked the term from anarchists. Anarchists commonly refer to themselves as libertarians outside of the United States.

THIS is what a libertarian society would look like in practice: https://www.npr.org/2018/08/22/640815074/verizon-throttled-firefighters-data-as-mendocino-wildfire-raged-fire-chief-says

Whereas an anarchist society would actually look to tear down old idols (such as confederate statues). Look through the crowd of those who took down silent sam, and i'm confident that you'll find many left-leaning radicals who self identify as anarchists in the group. Anarchists believe in "propoganda by the deed" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deed).


Anyway, for anyone who is slightly interested in anarchist thought, I'd highly recommend reading the works of:

- George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
- Peter Kropotkin - The Conquest of Bread
- Emma Goldman - Anarchism and other Essays
- Noam Chomsky - On Anarchism

All good reads, in my opinion.

Now, with that being said, I genuinely think that the best way to pull American "libertarians" to the left on issues is to introduce them to genuine anarchist principles. Because they'll agree with a lot of it (the state is bad, power is bad, etc). It is the obsession with private property that keeps them from accepting socialist ideas. And it is that obsession that undercuts their claim that they are against power and exposes it for being useless pablum. Because you can't be anti-authoritarian and still believe in private ownership over land/production at the same time.

Quote :
"Communism has the same end goal, but uses the state to dissolve classes first, and eventually itself."


This debate was the fundamental conflict between Karl Marx and Bakunin, fyi. There's a pretty interesting history between the inter-left squabbles of anarchists and socialists even though they largely are united against fascism.

8/24/2018 2:17:36 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Their concept of liberty revolves around the defense of private property, whereas an anarchists concept of liberty revolves around the dismantling of social hierarchies. American libertarians usually align with the right, but anarchists always align with the left, because they are socialist in ideology."


Yeah I get this difference, but both rely on a different version of human nature to uphold "natural law". I just don't see how, functionally, anarchism would turn out any differently than libertarianism. Idk. The Conquest of Bread is on my reading list.

8/24/2018 2:41:47 PM

Dentaldamn
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I enjoyed Homage to Catalonia. The Spanish Civil War was a mess.

8/24/2018 2:43:38 PM

TerdFerguson
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Wouldn’t you rather just read CrimethInc, get neck tats, and spit on yuppies?

[Edited on August 24, 2018 at 2:49 PM. Reason : Literally anything is better than Listening to Chomsky plod along. Dude is even bored of himself]

8/24/2018 2:47:28 PM

adultswim
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It's hilarious that Shrike is now a Posadist and Terd is a burgeoning neolib.

8/24/2018 2:52:31 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Yeah I get this difference, but both rely on a different version of human nature to uphold "natural law". I just don't see how, functionally, anarchism would turn out any differently than libertarianism. Idk. "


Yeah, and to this point, I think you (and afripino) are probably right. Anarchism is a romantic ideology, but its a romantic ideology that only moderately few people can think about because they don't also have the added layers of systemic oppression (dark skin, for one) to worry about.


Quote :
"Literally anything is better than Listening to Chomsky plod along. Dude is even bored of himself"


Chomsky himself puts me to sleep every time he drones on. But reading his stuff or hearing it on an audiobook by another speaker is worth the time, imo.

8/24/2018 2:53:08 PM

dtownral
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UNC BoG says Silent Sam will be replaced within 90 days

next time destroy the statue, don't just take it down

8/24/2018 4:13:50 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"next time destroy the statue board of governors office"

8/24/2018 5:01:52 PM

JesusHChrist
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^goddamn that is so fucking cowardly of them.


Musn't let the students think they have any say over their own school.

8/24/2018 5:02:12 PM

thegoodlife3
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I’m cautiously optimistic about it never going back up

8/24/2018 5:18:40 PM

JesusHChrist
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^I don't know. Didn't the UNC BoG write a letter to the Governor asking for permission to remove the statue, and when the governor gave permission, they wrote another letter stating why they thought they couldn't?

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article168701012.html

They've shown their hand on this. If it goes back up, it's because they wanted it to. The only thing keeping it down will be fear of public reprisal, which is probably what will need to happen in order to keep it down.

8/24/2018 6:13:29 PM

dtownral
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one of the chapel hill cops who was protecting silent sam:


enhance...


piece of shit cop is a 3%er

8/24/2018 8:09:07 PM

JesusHChrist
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So.....some of those who ride forces?

8/24/2018 10:59:40 PM

nacstate
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https://www huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5b807e7be4b072951512ee47

Quote :
"According to the police chief, Daniels “expressed regret that his tattoo has been associated with groups that perpetuate hatred and violence.”"


Lol wut?

[Edited on August 25, 2018 at 12:30 AM. Reason : L]

8/25/2018 12:29:03 AM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"The only thing keeping it down will be fear of public reprisal, which is probably what will need to happen in order to keep it down."


this is my thinking. the genie has already been let out of the bottle.

8/25/2018 12:32:08 AM

Nighthawk
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Folks being idiots today on Franklin Street. The rednecks looking like idiots and the counter-protesters acting like fucking idiots. The only ones I feel really sorry for in this is the police officers as they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They caught shit earlier in the week for letting that protest happen and not stopping them from pulling the statue down by the pro-Silent Sam folks and now they are catching hell from the anti-Silent Sam folks today because they arrested several counter-protesters who were breaking laws (stealing the Confederate flags and trying to burn them, getting into it with the cops, etc.) and then started ganging up on the police yelling "Fucking Pigs" and "Fuck da Police!" That shit ain't helping anything.

I really wish these counter protesters would ignore these guys. They claim they don't want them to have a platform to get their message out, but it really seems like their actions just get more people stirred up and give them more publicity. Nobody came out and gave H.K Edgerton shit on Wednesday when he showed up in full Confederate uniform and rocking his flag. Maybe nobody wanted to mess with him because its hard to call a black guy racist?

Funniest part of the whole thing to me is the police officer getting tripped by the Bird scooter while walking backwards and falling. Didn't look like he got hurt as he jumped right back up. Still felt bad for him but the irony of how they are supposed to be removed from campus this weekend is pretty funny.

[Edited on August 25, 2018 at 2:20 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2018 2:16:19 PM

aaronburro
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I can't help but laugh at how adultswim followed the exact path of my hypothetical argument, all while ignoring my response.

Quote :
"Me: "The left is trying to make the argument that it's OK to for protestors to be violent and destroy things if they think their cause is suitably just."
adultswim: "This statue was protested for years and government failed to act, so the people took it into their own hands. It was an illegal, but extremely moral act."
Me: "I think it's pretty dangerous to leave it up to protestors to decide if their cause is good enough to allow violence and the destruction of property."
adultswim: *crickets*"


Quote :
"Me: "Of course, you are going to backpedal and say 'but no, my cause REALLY is just.'"
adultswim: "Tearing down a monument to racism is not morally equivalent to tearing down a monument against racism."
Me: "[That] is nothing more than a slightly more complex version of "it's OK if I do it, because I'm right." That's hypocrisy."
adultswim: *crickets*"



You seem to be suggesting that my argument is either that there's a moral equivalence to the motivations of anti-confederate-statue folks and white supremacists, or, simplistically, that folks shouldn't do things that break the law. Fuck that, I'm not going anywhere near those two issues. Instead, I'm saying that there is a moral equivalence among ANY group of protestors who use violence, no matter their motivations.

If we allow one group, regardless of its motivations, to normalize violence in protests of any sort, it allows other groups to normalize their violence. With that level of violence of normalized, the original group escalates their actions, normalizing even further violence, with other groups following suit. Eventually you get a situation like we had here in Charlotte a couple years ago when folks were beating the shit out of a white guy in a parking garage during the Keith Lamont Scott protests. Folks on the left responded with "that's just the voice of the unheard." Well, last year in Charlottesville we had folks beating the shit out of a black guy, and someone else literally plowing over protestors in a car. Were those just "the voices of the unheard?"

The only moral position is that violent forms of protests are absolutely unacceptable, no matter the motivation or reasoning. Boston Tea Party included. Otherwise, you might find yourself on the receiving end of somebody else's "morally just cause." The way we address this is pretty clear: the state should charge protestors who use violence to the fullest extent of the law. The kids who tore down Silent Sam should be charged with the Class H felonies that they willingly committed, and expelled from UNC or whatever clown college they are going to which failed to teach them that violence is a poor way to express themselves. Not because Silent Sam is good, but because violence is violence, no matter why you do it.

8/25/2018 2:20:24 PM

dtownral
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how are you so dumb

8/25/2018 3:26:26 PM

adultswim
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lol in burro's ideal world, we would still be a british colony

(also we would still have slaves)

[Edited on August 25, 2018 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2018 3:27:51 PM

dtownral
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the civil rights movement was apparently morally reprehensible

8/25/2018 3:30:52 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"violence is violence"


Even when it isn't violence. It's still violence. Because property.

Tearing down a statue that memorializes slave ownership is the same thing as running over anti-racist activists with a car. Because property.

8/25/2018 3:48:46 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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Beautiful strawmen yall are building up. Be a shame if something happened to them

8/25/2018 4:08:25 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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Do you not know what words mean?

8/25/2018 7:40:05 PM

moron
All American
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::insert excerpt from Letter from Birmingham Jail::

[Edited on August 25, 2018 at 11:26 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2018 11:25:33 PM

synapse
play so hard
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aaronburro champions legality as his guide for morality. Gross.

[Edited on August 26, 2018 at 6:01 PM. Reason : And calling vandalism violence is grasping at straws, as evidenced by his need to mention the former 49264628 times.]

8/26/2018 5:59:09 PM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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https://twitter.com/dailytarheel/status/1033408533805625347?s=21

Pretty cool the guy supporting Silent Sam has a KISS tattoo near his ear.

[Edited on August 26, 2018 at 7:15 PM. Reason : This same guy said blacks should be happy they’ve come so far. Did Nazi that coming..]

8/26/2018 7:11:36 PM

dtownral
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are those the nazis you think we should ignore?

(maybe James Cates should have ignored the storm troopers who were stabbing him in the pit)

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 9:24 AM. Reason : .]

8/27/2018 9:15:14 AM

afripino
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maybe SS stands for "Silent Sam" and he's just a fan of THAT particular statue.

maybe...

8/27/2018 4:45:54 PM

TreeTwista10
R Tree Ermey
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https://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/06/the-kkk-kept-patrick-ewing-from-attending-unc

8/28/2018 12:46:04 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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I had never seen that. Ewing on that roster would have been insanity.

8/28/2018 6:28:21 AM

JesusHChrist
All American
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peak Ewing Theory, jesus christ.

8/28/2018 12:46:14 PM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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One Bill Simmons thing I never got on board with. First, the season was a sham anyway and if it was a full 82 games the Knicks roster was good enough for a 3-4 seed. Second, Ewing was well into his decline across the board. “Star player” was a bit of a stretch.

(I cringe thinking about that Ewing trying to guard that Duncan in a seven-game series.

[Edited on August 28, 2018 at 1:41 PM. Reason : Sports Talk II]

8/28/2018 1:40:17 PM

afripino
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ItBelongsInAMuseum.gif

8/29/2018 11:12:31 AM

dtownral
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Why does it need to be in a museum? These were put up to whitewash and erase history, the only debate should be if it gets recycled or if recycling is too dignified and we should just trash it.

8/30/2018 7:06:09 AM

afripino
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^to appease the racists.

8/30/2018 9:13:39 AM

Mr. Joshua
we want chilly willy
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https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article217601910.html

Quote :
"Silent Sam’s takedown was the result of a “sophisticated political agenda” by “non-student radicals” that police let happen, a UNC Board of Governors member says in an 8-minute video he posted Thursday.

“The destruction of Silent Sam is not as you are led to believe,” Thom Goolsby said in the video posted to his YouTube channel.

Goolsby said the statue’s fate was not the result of a student-led, spontaneous uprising, but that “crime and riot on our UNC-Chapel Hill campus” was the “work of outside, non-student radicals carrying out what is shown to be a pre-planned and sophisticated political agenda.”

Goolsby also accused the police present that night of inaction that helped bring the statue down.

“If you’ve heard that the police weren’t ready for what was going on; they were surprised — no surprise,” Goolsby said in the video.

The plan to topple Silent Sam was “put out all over” Orange and Durham counties ahead of time, Goolsby said, and was “so planned out” there were bandanas that read “Silent Sam must fall.”

Some protesters wore the Carolina blue bandanas to cover their faces, which Goolsby said was “reminiscent of the Klan.”"


wat

8/31/2018 9:13:16 AM

marko
Tom Joad
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What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

8/31/2018 9:18:29 AM

TerdFerguson
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Former state legislator, best known for his crusade against NC’s Racial Justice Act (which sought to repeal the death penalty in court cases where race could be shown as a favtor in sentencing), now crusading for confederate statues???

Who da thunk it??

8/31/2018 9:23:33 AM

Money_Jones
Ohhh Farts
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Quote :
"Why does it need to be in a museum? These were put up to whitewash and erase history, the only debate should be if it gets recycled or if recycling is too dignified and we should just trash it."


If it has to go to a museum should absolutely be in a civil rights exhibit about jim crow bull shit, not a civil war museum

8/31/2018 10:37:17 AM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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80 TAs at Chapel Hill are currently refusing to post grades unless the plan to put a building around Silent Sam is scrapped. 2000 students are currently affected. Some students won't be able to graduate, which would cost them any jobs they had lined up. ROTC students are at risk of losing their commissions. Event better, some students who are here on student visas may lose their visas if their grades don't get reported.

It's a shame that cesspool of a university can't seem to teach its students the difference between valid forms of protest and criminal activity.

12/10/2018 1:22:41 AM

dtownral
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They tried peaceful assembly and got beat up by cops who were there to protect nazis, this seems like a good nonviolent protest to me

[Edited on December 10, 2018 at 7:39 AM. Reason : .]

12/10/2018 7:39:00 AM

thegoodlife3
All American
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^

12/10/2018 11:01:35 AM

adultswim
All American
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Quote :
"It's a shame that cesspool of a university can't seem to teach its students the difference between valid forms of protest and criminal activity."


it's a shame that schools don't relate the history of this country to the right of its present-day citizens to protest injustice

12/10/2018 11:17:27 AM

marko
Tom Joad
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the irony of Tea Partiers who toe that "these people are law-breakers" line is that in a nutshell

YOU NAMED YOUR MOVEMENT AFTER THE SAME THING

[Edited on December 10, 2018 at 12:08 PM. Reason : it's almost like there's another reason... hmmmmmmm...]

12/10/2018 12:07:38 PM

dtownral
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Quote :
"#UNC made their proposal about #silentsam to the BOG based on advice given to them by these people. It's funny, but then it's also TERRIFYING."

https://twitter.com/AlyssaAnnBowen/status/1070519146058788864

video linked in tweet:
Five Star Global Security Homepage Narrative
https://vimeo.com/195742442

Quote :
"This is not parody. The CEO of the company that made this video was on the five-person "Chapel Hill Public Safety Panel" Folt used "to assess the security and public safety issues associated with the “Silent Sam” civil war monument". No wonder they want more police."

https://twitter.com/sadlerja/status/1070521442167652354

12/11/2018 12:48:23 PM

Dr Pepper
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Quote :
"So.....some of those who ride forces?"



Just now saw this, I got it.

12/12/2018 9:40:52 AM

dtownral
All American
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more faculty now joining the protest and refusing to release grades, some refusing to teach at the beginning of the spring semester

12/12/2018 9:44:12 AM

rjrumfel
All American
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I don't give a shit about the monument, but those professors should be terminated for non-performance.

12/12/2018 10:06:19 AM

dtownral
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yeah i'm sure students are why you're upset about this (students you wouldn't mind harming by firing a ton of faculty)

12/12/2018 10:08:09 AM

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