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dtownral
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aaronburro would watch a dog die in a hot car because it's illegal to break a window to save a dog



[Edited on August 22, 2018 at 2:37 PM. Reason : pg 4]

8/22/2018 2:37:13 PM

thegoodlife3
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LAWS are LAWS and that’s that!

8/22/2018 2:43:20 PM

Bullet
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well, they are, aren't they? (even if I don't agree, or even follow them)

8/22/2018 2:48:54 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"(even if I don't agree, or even follow them)"


(that’s the point)

8/22/2018 2:53:22 PM

Bullet
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ok dude.

8/22/2018 2:55:15 PM

adultswim
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dogs are dogs

pigs are pigs

trees are trees

yes everyone agrees, it's just not clear what you're getting at

[Edited on August 22, 2018 at 2:58 PM. Reason : .]

8/22/2018 2:57:32 PM

adultswim
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[Edited on August 22, 2018 at 2:58 PM. Reason : double post]

8/22/2018 2:58:16 PM

thegoodlife3
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hey gang. you seemed to miss that it was a post mocking those who think that all laws are just laws no matter what and that all laws are to be followed, regardless of morality.

8/22/2018 3:08:17 PM

Bullet
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what?

8/22/2018 3:17:27 PM

adultswim
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^^
i got it, i just don't think bullet did / i don't understand the point he's trying to make

8/22/2018 3:39:23 PM

dtownral
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The point went sailing miles over bullet's head

8/22/2018 5:05:31 PM

AndyMac
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Quote :
"aaronburro would watch a dog die in a hot car because it's illegal to break a window to save a dog
"


It would depend on whether the dog was a golden retriever or a black lab.

[Edited on August 22, 2018 at 7:59 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2018 7:59:00 PM

moron
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Absence of tension?

Or presence of justice?

8/23/2018 12:34:28 AM

d357r0y3r
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"The law is the law" argument boils down to a question of whether the law is sacred or whether the law is some sort of guideline to be obeyed most of the time but ignored when it...I don't know, feels right.

The real issue is anyone breaking the law may believe they're acting as Rosa Parks, even if they're really not on the high moral ground. When people start to believe their moral righteousness overrides the cultural rules and frameworks they exist within, maybe you get people tearing down monuments, or maybe you get people vandalizing planned parenthood.

If you can have enough empathy for "the other side" (i.e. people opposite of you ideologically), or at least accept that many of your moral intuitions are not rational decisions, then you may recognize the need for some set of neutral, higher level rules.

b.t.w. the dog in a car analogy is a bad one because it is not illegal to break into the car in that situation. A better comparison would be freeing Jews during the Holocaust or something like that.

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 10:15 AM. Reason : ]

8/23/2018 10:13:17 AM

afripino
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these people should have just legally waited to vote to get what they wanted too. LAWS ARE LAWS!

8/23/2018 10:15:21 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"b.t.w. the dog in a car analogy is a bad one because it is not illegal to break into the car in that situation."

only legal for law enforcement to break a window to save a dog in NC

aaronburro and destroyer would watch a puppy die in a hot car because it's illegal to break a window

(it's super weird to see an anarchist libertarian call for the need for laws, it's almost like maybe they don't really have an ideology they just don't like black people or liberals getting too uppity. weirdddd)

8/23/2018 10:17:45 AM

rjrumfel
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So let's level-set this thread.

Do we follow the current set of laws, regardless of whether or not we believe they are just and fair? It's a yes or no question.

So far from what I'm seeing from the tally, here's the breakdown:

Bullet - Yes
tgl3 - No
dtownral - No
destroyer - Yes
aaronburro - Yes
moron - ?
adultswim - ?

The Planned Parenthood example is a good one, because you will probably not find a group who thinks they are more morally righteous than you than the pro-life crowd. Those folks think that deep down in their hearts they're right. So any vandalizing of a PP operation or abortion clinic is justified in their minds.

So who is right, the people who tear down statues? Or the people who break windows at an abortion clinic?

Why is this even an argument? Why don't we punish the people who do both, mark down the message they were trying to make, and move on?

8/23/2018 10:25:47 AM

dtownral
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only bootlicking fascists rank legality above morality

8/23/2018 10:28:25 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"So who is right, the people who tear down statues? Or the people who break windows at an abortion clinic? "


The people who tear down statues that are monuments to racism are absolutely morally superior here. There is no equivalence. Again, there are shades of gray, this is not one of them.

If people truly believed abortion was murder, and they weren't just being intellectually dishonest, there would be more windows broken at abortion clinics, though.

Quote :
"(it's super weird to see an anarchist libertarian call for the need for laws, it's almost like maybe they don't really have an ideology they just don't like black people or liberals getting too uppity. weirdddd)"


destroyer and LoneSnark are just capitalists with a boner for Milton Friedman. I appreciate NeuseRvrRat because at least he's consistently balls-to-the-wall libertarian.

8/23/2018 10:38:13 AM

d357r0y3r
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"only bootlicking fascists rank legality above morality"


Well, the law usually does lag behind culture. Legislators are slow as fuck to react to what people now believe. It's how you have weird situations like 70% of people wanting legal weed but it not being legal in most places (superficial example).

The real problem I see is that the U.S. is coming apart at the seams in terms of moral "groups". Blue tribe/red tribe people don't talk, and they're as far from each other as possible in terms of what they think is important.

If "culture" decides that a law is shitty and decides to take matters into its own hands, then I may be okay with that. If two distinct cultures have very different ideas about what laws are good and bad, and they both say that they're willing to ignore the law, now you have an irreconcilable conflict that can only be resolved with violence, which is not ideal.

Quote :
"If people truly believed abortion was murder, and they weren't just being intellectually dishonest, there would be more windows broken at abortion clinics, though."


This is more or less what I'm talking about in the second paragraph above. The thought "my enemies are either lying or evil" is a pattern of dehumanization that has, traditionally, led to violence. It certainly doesn't lead to greater understanding.

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 10:42 AM. Reason : ]

8/23/2018 10:40:17 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Legislators are slow as fuck to react to what people now believe. It's how you have weird situations like 70% of people wanting legal weed but it not being legal in most places (superficial example)"


Because most legislators don't give a shit what people want. They do what gets them paid and re-elected. The weed lobby isn't big enough yet, and no one cares enough to push the legislation.

Nationalized healthcare is also at something like 70% approval.

8/23/2018 10:56:14 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"The real problem I see is that the U.S. is coming apart at the seams in terms of moral "groups". Blue tribe/red tribe people don't talk, and they're as far from each other as possible in terms of what they think is important."

yeah everything was peaceful and we all got along until that divisive uppity obama mucked things up!


Quote :
"The thought "my enemies are either lying or evil" is a pattern of dehumanization that has, traditionally, led to violence. It certainly doesn't lead to greater understanding.
"

if one actually believes that abortion is murder (or some even say genocide!) and are okay with letting it continue and don't do anything except vote for "pro-life" candidates and complain on facebook, why is that not reprehensible? it seems more likely, and is more morally consistent, that they are exaggerating their feelings (read: lying) and don't actually feel that strongly that it's murder or genocide - they just don't like it.

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:06 AM. Reason : .]

8/23/2018 11:02:15 AM

thegoodlife3
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"The Planned Parenthood example is a good one"


no, it’s not

intimidating those who are seeking legal access to health care and those who are providing the health care is awful and there is no argument for it

who gets intimidated by tearing down a confederate statue? confederates?

8/23/2018 11:06:53 AM

dtownral
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but muh heritage!

8/23/2018 11:07:40 AM

d357r0y3r
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No, things have been getting worse for a while, I think, pretty much in tandem with general increasing inequality.

I think there's a strong argument that it's a class thing. Educated liberals vs. working class people. Racial tension is an easier pill to swallow for most, but the divide between white/black could be a smaller chasm than white/poor white.

You can observe this phenomenon on Twitter with what appears to be, on the surface at least, self-hating white people. They talk a lot about how bad white people are. But, wait, they're white people, are they calling themselves bad? You have to read between the lines. They're not talking about people with white skin, they're talking about fly-over state country bumpkins - you could call it a dog whistle.

The Bumpkins and progressives hate each other more than any two groups in the United States. And they're both filled to the brim with moral righteousness and are probably willing to use force to get what they want.

Quote :
"if one actually believes that abortion is murder (or some even say genocide!) and are okay with letting it continue and don't do anything except vote for "pro-life" candidates and complain on facebook, why is that not reprehensible? it seems more likely, and is more morally consistent, that they are exaggerating their feelings (read: lying) and don't actually feel that strongly that it's murder or genocide - they just don't like it. "


Why are BLM people not out killing cops? If they believe that cops are systematically eradicating black people, then shouldn't they be killing cops to prevent the genocide?

There are a lot of answers. One answer is, yes, they don't actually believe that all cops are evil. The other answer is that they don't want to die or ruin their lives, which seems a lot more likely.

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:17 AM. Reason : ]

8/23/2018 11:13:13 AM

afripino
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Quote :
"Why are BLM people not out killing cops? If they believe that cops are systematically eradicating black people, then shouldn't they be killing cops to prevent the genocide?

There are a lot of answers. One answer is, yes, they don't actually believe that all cops are evil. The other answer is that they don't want to die or ruin their lives, which seems a lot more likely."


holy shit...that's some gold medal mental gymnastics right there.

8/23/2018 11:20:51 AM

adultswim
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"You can observe this phenomenon on Twitter with what appears to be, on the surface at least, self-hating white people. They talk a lot about how bad white people are. But, wait, they're white people, are they calling themselves bad? You have to read between the lines. They're not talking about people with white skin, they're talking about fly-over state country bumpkins - you could call it a dog whistle. "


Elitist white liberals are about as bad as fly-over state racists. They're honestly a lot more fun to ridicule.

Quote :
"Why are BLM people not out killing cops? If they believe that cops are systematically eradicating black people, then shouldn't they be killing cops to prevent the genocide?"


Cop-hating is pretty fringe and you still see huge protests all over the country. And cops who kill innocent people are harassed pretty spectacularly. Also it's ACAB, not ACAE. They're bad because they enable police abuse, doesn't mean they deserve to be murdered.

On the other hand, anti-abortionists make up almost half the country, so where are the enormous protests & marches against abortion?

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM. Reason : .]

8/23/2018 11:21:43 AM

dtownral
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^^^psst... capitalists want the working class fighting among themselves, it's a feature of capitalism and not a bug

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:23 AM. Reason : .]

8/23/2018 11:23:32 AM

FroshKiller
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d357r0y3r is an idiot for the ages. Like...fucking wow, what a talent. They ought to hang your brain scans. Please fucking cry over this comment. I want you to feel shame and anger. Like, holy shit, how have you not been hit by a car crossing the street?

8/23/2018 11:24:13 AM

d357r0y3r
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Well, the group that opposes abortion doesn't really believe that protests are effective. Protests have largely become a domain of the left - the right views protests as something that jobless losers do to whine and complain. That's at least part of the answer.

The other part of the answer is that, yes, some large portion of that group doesn't actually give a shit about abortion being illegal, it's just a tribal litmus test. There's no reason that someone telling me their position on abortion tells me what their position on global warming is with 98% accuracy. They're not related in any way. But, both political tribes in the U.S. use heavy policing to enforce conformity with their own group.

8/23/2018 11:28:33 AM

adultswim
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If you look at what gets the right and left in the streets protesting, it's plainly obvious what motivates each side.

Quote :
"The other part of the answer is that, yes, some large portion of that group doesn't actually give a shit about abortion being illegal, it's just a tribal litmus test."


Agreed

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:30 AM. Reason : .]

8/23/2018 11:29:24 AM

dtownral
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^^cool now circle your blabber back to why it's better to obey laws than morality

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:30 AM. Reason : .]

8/23/2018 11:29:52 AM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"cool now circle your blabber back to why it's better to obey laws than morality"


I didn't come down hard on either side. I think my position is that the law has value, that disobeying it is okay in extreme cases, but that if a society becomes divided enough, a routine breaking of laws could lead to some pretty dicey dynamics.

8/23/2018 11:34:22 AM

dtownral
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so basically you just wanted to hear yourself talk and don't really have anything to add to the conversation

8/23/2018 11:37:14 AM

d357r0y3r
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I think you just perfectly described your contribution to this message board.

8/23/2018 11:37:39 AM

adultswim
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"I didn't come down hard on either side. I think my position is that the law has value, that disobeying it is okay in extreme cases, but that if a society becomes divided enough, a routine breaking of laws could lead to some pretty dicey dynamics."


The "division" you're seeing is a side effect of representatives who don't listen to us or do shit. This is why certain leftists are reaching out to the working class, including the reactionary portions. AOC, Bernie, Nixon, etc.

Quote :
"capitalists want the working class fighting among themselves, it's a feature of capitalism and not a bug"

8/23/2018 11:44:37 AM

Bullet
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Quote :
"Do we follow the current set of laws, regardless of whether or not we believe they are just and fair? It's a yes or no question.

So far from what I'm seeing from the tally, here's the breakdown:

Bullet - Yes
..."


Nah, I'm sorry but I don't believe that in all situations. I shouldn't have even said anything in the first place. I wasn't talking about the morality of the action, my only (obvious) point was that it was vandalism and therefore illegal. (But they knew that and probably knew there may be legal consequences, but thought it was important enough to take the risk.)

[Edited on August 23, 2018 at 11:53 AM. Reason : ]

8/23/2018 11:52:52 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Nah, I'm sorry but I don't believe that in all situations."


So you would follow a law you believe to be immoral, even if you wouldn't be caught?

8/23/2018 12:07:16 PM

Bullet
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I must not be making myself clear.

No, I would not necessarily follow a law if I believe it to be immoral (or silly, or harmless to others, etc.)

8/23/2018 12:10:47 PM

adultswim
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And do you think that a statue that was erected in the name of racism should remain standing?

8/23/2018 12:12:05 PM

dtownral
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is there still confusion about bullet's position after this:
Quote :
" I wasn't talking about the morality of the action, my only (obvious) point was that it was vandalism and therefore illegal. (But they knew that and probably knew there may be legal consequences, but thought it was important enough to take the risk.)
"

8/23/2018 12:14:06 PM

Bullet
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^^No, I never said or inferred that.

8/23/2018 12:15:37 PM

adultswim
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eyyyyyyyy my bad, i misread one of your posts. we are on the same page.

8/23/2018 12:32:07 PM

JesusHChrist
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"(it's super weird to see an anarchist libertarian call for the need for laws, it's almost like maybe they don't really have an ideology they just don't like black people or liberals getting too uppity. weirdddd)"


American libertarians totally hijacked the term "libertarian" from the anarchist movement and completely bastardized the ideology to support a hyper-individualized form of free market control of society.

Anarchists may be collectivist utopian idealists, but at least they are cool. Libertarians are college-aged white males who are free-market loving dorks that want to freeze society in its current state so that they can coast off of the centuries of inequality brought by labor suppression, and racial and class hierarchies that have been cemented in our social framework.

8/23/2018 12:57:51 PM

afripino
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good post, Jesus.

8/23/2018 3:54:54 PM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"Libertarians are college-aged white males"


Implying that there are any college-aged people on TWW.

8/23/2018 5:40:09 PM

JesusHChrist
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Except that's literally the time period when all you guys begin screaming about ending the fed and fiat money while wearing your Ron Paul shirts.

You couldn't make the leap from libertarian to anarchist because of your boner for private property. And you don't want to grapple with the realities of racial and gender inequalities that are amplified by capital to sow working class divisions, so you need to believe total academic charlatans like Jordan Peterson to explain why social hierarchies are natural and necessary rather than admitting that they are a force of exploitation used to bludgeon the working poor.

8/23/2018 7:38:27 PM

afripino
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I can't leap to full-on anarchist because I can't trust people (read: white people as a whole) enough yet to buy into it.

8/24/2018 8:57:50 AM

adultswim
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Yeah I can't get behind an ideology that is the same as libertarianism apart from aesthetics.

Communism has the same end goal, but uses the state to dissolve classes first, and eventually itself.

[Edited on August 24, 2018 at 10:49 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2018 10:48:36 AM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"Communism has the same end goal, but uses the state to dissolve classes first, and eventually itself."


If we just give them enough power, they'll eventually let go of the power and put themselves out of a job. Hard to believe anyone voluntarily went along with that plan.

I'm not an anarchist and I don't call myself an anarchist. I don't have an answer to what happens when your anarchist utopia gets taken over by the totalitarian military dictatorship next door. Power vacuums exist and civilization basically operates on Might Makes Right.

I don't have all the answers and I'm a lot less idealistic than I was. I think if most people were honest with themselves, they'd realize that they don't even understand how things work at a small scale. When I hear someone unironically say we need a global overthrow of the current economic and cultural order, that just sounds like the sort of person you want to keep far away from any position of power higher than night manager at McDonald's.

8/24/2018 12:21:30 PM

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