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utowncha
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its bad faith to not go looking for them... its also stupid to wait so long to make them more easily accessible.

2/25/2020 9:51:41 AM

horosho
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The notion that spending must be offset with revenue is not just a right-wing talking point, its a core principal of fiscal conservatism. The line of thought that wants to answer the "How are we going to pay for this?" question leads down the road to austerity.

Giving attention to or answering the question plays into right wing talking points because its a question not often asked in contexts other than the cost of progressive policies. How many candidates have been pressed about the total cost of every government program? How many politicians have ever been pressed about covering the total cost of government? How have we ever paid for anything in the long history of deficit spending? You haven't heard a peep about how Trump would pay for increased military spending or tax cuts for the wealthy.

So yes the question is a right-wing talking point that everyone in this thread has embraced and advanced.

Bernie didn't have the page up because his campaign knew balancing all new spending with new revenue was not necessary, nor was explaining total costs but they folded under the pressure of Anderson Cooper. Now they are painted into a corner because there is no way all of those specific numbers could go as planned and Bernie would be the first president in recent history expected to balance all new spending.



[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 9:58 AM. Reason : you guys are fiscally conservatives who don't even know it because the right has indoctrinated you]

2/25/2020 9:57:22 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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Quote :
" So yes the question is a right-wing talking point that everyone in this thread has embraced and advanced."


That’s because the person advancing that (HCH and rjrumfel) is literally rightwing.

Also, did you catch Tucker’s hot monologue last night talking about how diversity is not a strength and it will hurt us wrt Corona-virus!!!

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 10:00 AM. Reason : Daaave and aimorris didn’t advance that talking point at all from what I can see]

2/25/2020 9:59:20 AM

daaave
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Yeah I was agreeing that he needs a better answer to the question.

But thank you horosho for educating me, a communist, on left-wing economics.

2/25/2020 10:03:20 AM

Exiled
Eyes up here ^^
5905 Posts
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Quote :
"How is it a bad faith question to ask how enormous new entitlement programs will be paid?"


How's the funding for that border wall going buddy? We get that check from Mexico yet?

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 10:20 AM. Reason : ]

2/25/2020 10:19:24 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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I’d like to just take a moment to marvel in the audacity of Earl to accuse others of “falling for a rightwing talking point.”

Just amazing lack of self-awareness trolling.

2/25/2020 10:21:18 AM

rjrumfel
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OMG if you guys think I'm right wing, you've all lost it. Because I won't throw my vote right now to Bernie, that makes me right wing? Because I question Bernie's ideas, that makes me right wing?

Lol.

Have fun with 4 more years of Trump.

2/25/2020 11:27:12 AM

qntmfred
retired
39877 Posts
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How would you describe your political views?

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 11:37 AM. Reason : not disputing your statement or reinforcing the right-wing claim. just curious]

2/25/2020 11:36:48 AM

aimorris
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buddy you listen to Rush

2/25/2020 11:58:41 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"OMG if you guys think I'm right wing, you've all lost it. Because I won't throw my vote right now to Bernie, that makes me right wing? Because I question Bernie's ideas, that makes me right wing? "


Would you vote for Bernie or Trump? Still haven't seen you answer this question.

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 11:59 AM. Reason : .]

2/25/2020 11:59:12 AM

dtownral
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^^rjrumfel probably thinks rush is moderate

2/25/2020 12:03:13 PM

rjrumfel
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If it came down to those two, I really don't know. I would probably stay home. Honestly, Bernie and his policies scare me. Does that make me right wing? Who knows ho the economy would react if he were able to implement the things he wants. Do I have college debt that I'd like to have erased? Sure. But is it worth the potential cost of disrupting our economy?

2/25/2020 12:03:42 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"But is it worth the potential cost of disrupting our economy?"


What he's proposing is less radical than what exists in many other countries, and he has plans to pay for everything. In what way do you think the economy will be disrupted negatively?

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 12:07 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2020 12:07:11 PM

Geppetto
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When I look at these plans for Bernie: https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-does-bernie-pay-his-major-plans/ : I like that he calls out some cuts- i.e. defense and program administration- but find other aspects not fully thought out

1) He does what republicans tend to do with tax revenue cuts and links funding to taxation on new jobs. I've never seen these projections prove fruitful, and dislike when people use it. It's not a criticism of him per se but just something that tends to annoy me.

2) It seems like his taxation projections does not take into account reduced revenue impacts from his other taxation plans. e.g. taxing corporations who pay CEOs more than 50x the average. This isn't going to result in a rise in worker pay or higher taxes from these companies, but will rather result in reduced CEO pay, lowering their taxes. Companies will hold onto that money and find other, less taxable means to compensate (housing/travel stipends or even something easier such as stock). Even if the plan were to account for total comp, companies would first limit total comp or find ways around it (e.g. incorporating elsewhere) before actually paying the additional tax.

3) He is applying new, specialized taxes to the same income group over and over. I think from a human behavioral pattern, this is flawed. Again, philosophy aside, my guess is that as one exceeds over 50% of taxation on a person's income will lead to them, much like companies, finding creative ways to reclassify and hide income to avoid those sort of taxes. The approach in place does not seem thought out to me because suggests they said "we need money, these people have it, we'll just tax them here for this and here for that and so on and so on" rather than really looking at a series of end to end impacts that could generate the most amount of revenue for the plans overall.

2/25/2020 12:08:29 PM

rjrumfel
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@Daaaaave - sure other countries have similar programs, but there's none that compares to the size of our economy. If you want to use the UK as your example, I've yet to hear anything positive come from there in terms of descriptions of their healthcare.

2/25/2020 12:15:39 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"sure other countries have similar programs, but there's none that compares to the size of our economy."


https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=wealth+per+capita+by+country

1 Switzerland 368,936
2 United States 320,107
3 Denmark 223,102
4 Sweden 204,253

Why would the size of our economy matter, especially considering we are second in wealth per capita?

Quote :
" If you want to use the UK as your example, I've yet to hear anything positive come from there in terms of descriptions of their healthcare."


Because you listen to right wing media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snhu_pSVrTk

2/25/2020 12:19:45 PM

dtownral
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also M4A doesn't even go as far as the UK, M4A is just government insurance and not government healthcare like the UK

Canada is closer to M4A, the Canadian healthcare system has a much higher approval rating than the US system

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 12:26 PM. Reason : al]

2/25/2020 12:26:07 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
" OMG if you guys think I'm right wing, you've all lost it."


has somebody new started using your account?

because if not, there’s a more than a decades worth of posts that prove otherwise

2/25/2020 12:28:40 PM

HCH
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Quote :
"he notion that spending must be offset with revenue is not just a right-wing talking point, its a core principal of fiscal conservatism."


Unless the democrat position has changed in the past 5 minutes, the size of the national debt is most certainly a bipartisan issue. The only reason some Democrats (Sanders, Warren, AOC) aren't concerned about the deficit or how they will pay for certain entitlement programs is because they are finally being honest, unlike most every other politician who has ever lived. We have been lied to by every president ever that we need to get the debt under control, and then we engage in a 20+ year war. This isn't just a concern of half the country. But just because those D's are being honest about that, doesn't make it right.

The national debt absolutely has a greater impact on the low and middle class (either through higher taxes, higher interest rates, etc), that absolutely needs to be considered when ANY new government spending is proposed. Whether that's a $700B bank bailout, or the unknown cost of M4A.

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 2:12 PM. Reason : 1]

2/25/2020 2:09:23 PM

dtownral
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republicans don't actually care, they just pretend to give a shit when a dem is in office

2/25/2020 2:29:02 PM

0EPII1
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"If it came down to those two, I really don't know. I would probably stay home." = there is a chance I might vote Trump

2/25/2020 4:30:07 PM

synapse
play so hard
59101 Posts
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Quote :
"How would you describe your political views?

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 11:37 AM. Reason : not disputing your statement or reinforcing the right-wing claim. just curious]"


Pretty basic question for you there rjrumple.

2/25/2020 5:04:25 PM

0EPII1
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Man, I hope this doesn't bite Bernie in the ass.

https://twitter.com/RosLehtinen/status/1232145537023037440

2/25/2020 5:15:33 PM

moron
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^ i dont think it will. most ppl don't view cuba as a threat, they support normalizing relations, and the cubans want this too.

2/25/2020 5:27:03 PM

dtownral
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sanders didn't say anything that obama and tons of others have said, this is only something that super serious pundits and other people who hate sanders think is a thing

2/25/2020 5:50:28 PM

StTexan
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2/25/2020 6:12:13 PM

dtownral
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^ super serious


https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1231808706301562881

https://twitter.com/nicolesandler/status/1232264736441618432
etc...

2/25/2020 6:17:31 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"Unless the democrat position has changed in the past 5 minutes, the size of the national debt is most certainly a bipartisan issue. The only reason some Democrats (Sanders, Warren, AOC) aren't concerned about the deficit or how they will pay for certain entitlement programs is because they are finally being honest, unlike most every other politician who has ever lived. We have been lied to by every president ever that we need to get the debt under control, and then we engage in a 20+ year war. This isn't just a concern of half the country. But just because those D's are being honest about that, doesn't make it right.

."

Establishment democrats are right wingers. They are also fiscally conservative but socially liberal. At least in rhetoric. Notice how I didn't say it was a GOP talking point. Sanders Warren and AOC are some of the only mainstream policians who are actually on the economic left. (warren is more of a centrist on economics, the rest of the party is center right)

Quote :
"The national debt absolutely has a greater impact on the low and middle class (either through higher taxes, higher interest rates, etc), that absolutely needs to be considered when ANY new government spending is proposed. Whether that's a $700B bank bailout, or the unknown cost of M4A"

There a huge difference between the bank bailout and M4A though. One saves $10,000 per person which more than offsets the impact of the added debt for the working class. Think of that as a rule of thumb for the difference between democratic socialism and blind government spending. These programs all have benefits for the everyday person that outweigh the costs.

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 7:07 PM. Reason : k]

2/25/2020 7:07:03 PM

rwoody
Save TWW
29786 Posts
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I respect oep really sticking to his brand of "posting about stuff like it's new 5 hours after everyone finished talking about it"

2/25/2020 7:26:25 PM

dtownral
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It goes twitter -> reddit -> facebook -> british tabloids -> time passes -> OEP posts here

2/25/2020 8:00:04 PM

rjrumfel
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21951 Posts
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Quote :
"has somebody new started using your account?

because if not, there’s a more than a decades worth of posts that prove otherwise

"


Would a right winger be pro-choice? Would a right winger support gay marriage? Would a right winger think Trump is an idiot?

I'm fiscally conservative, and I'm worried that upending the private insurance industry in this country could have all sorts of unintended consequences that we wouldn't or couldn't see coming. I think supporting transgender rights are enabling a mental illness. My personal experiences with the social safety net have informed my views, and not in a positive light. I've seen waaay too many family members grow dependent on disability. I've had cousins that have had children on our dime. So yes, I have a conflicted view of the social safety net. I know it helps millions, but I know that many also take advantage.

So if that makes me right wing, then so be it.

2/25/2020 9:34:55 PM

thegoodlife3
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you voted for Trump, were anti-Obama, fell regularly for ginned up stories from right wing news outlets, listen to conservative talk radio, etc...

Quote :
" I think supporting transgender rights are enabling a mental illness"


and for fucks sake, man

[Edited on February 25, 2020 at 10:31 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2020 10:29:04 PM

synapse
play so hard
59101 Posts
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Quote :
"So if that makes me right wing, then so be it."


Your past 10+ years of posting and your oft mentioned media sources make you right wing...not whatever rando shit you chose to complain about on this one day out of those many years of posts.

2/25/2020 10:29:44 PM

dtownral
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saving to read later
Projected costs of single-payer healthcare financing in the United States: A systematic review of economic analyses
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003013

2/26/2020 9:04:35 AM

HCH
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Anyone catch the part of the debate where the candidates expressed concern for the cost of Sanders entitlement programs? But yes, this is a concern of only half the country. Just shows that TWW is so far left, most users think a position supported by most Dem candidates is just a far right talking point.

Quote :
"So if that makes me right wing, then so be it."
Dude, why are you so worried about how TWW wants to label you. They have no concept of what is right or left. To them, if you don't support the communist regime in the Caribbean, you are obviously a right wing loon.

2/26/2020 9:57:58 AM

dtownral
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lol, HCH is also falling for the fabricated controversy over cuba

HCH is a super serious person who actually cares about such issues

2/26/2020 10:03:10 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
49958 Posts
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^^ obama, sadly, really did care and try to work with the GOP at keeping deficits under control. Pelosi supports Pay-Go too.

So yeah maybe one half does care no matter who is in the majority. But one thing we know as a certainty is that the entire GOP caucus doesn’t give one single shit. The one guy who did was kicked out.

Quote :
" To them, if you don't support the communist regime in the Caribbean, you are obviously a right wing loon."


This is not fair. There is one self-claimed communist on here and another who just trolls.

[Edited on February 26, 2020 at 10:23 AM. Reason : C]

2/26/2020 10:20:45 AM

HCH
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^^There are lots of countries with literacy programs. The only reason to single out Cuba is to make excuses for its murderous and oppressive regime. Bernie Sanders is a bad person.

^I am not arguing that the GOP has kept their election promises to reign in the deficit, far from it. But neither party is blameless for the state of the national debt. However, that doesn't mean that asking how a entitlement program will be paid is a "bad faith" question, or a position only pushed by the right.

[Edited on February 26, 2020 at 10:33 AM. Reason : 1]

2/26/2020 10:26:19 AM

dtownral
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one reason to bring up cuba is when anderson cooper brings up cuba and asks about it. then it's a good time to say in response:

Quote :
"COOPER: Back in the 1980s, Sanders had some positive things to say about the former Soviet Union and the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

Here he is explaining why the Cuban people didn't rise up and help the U.S. overthrow Cuban leader Fidel Castro: "…he educated their kids, gave them health care, totally transformed the society, you know?"

SANDERS: We're very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but you know, it's unfair to simply say everything is bad. You know? When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing? Even though Fidel Castro did it?

COOPER: A lot of political dissidents were imprisoned in Cuba.

SANDERS: That's right. And we condemn that. Unlike Donald Trump, let's be clear, you want to-- I do not think that Kim Jong Un is a good friend. I don't trade love letters with a murdering dictator. Vladimir Putin, not a great friend of mine."


[Edited on February 26, 2020 at 10:34 AM. Reason : .]

2/26/2020 10:32:52 AM

daaave
All American
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To no one in particular itt:

Castro and his revolutionary movement overcame an oppressive feudalist economy propped up by a right wing military regime who killed more people in 7 years than Castro did in the following 50. Then, while fighting counterrevolutionaries and the CIA, they built one of the highest quality and innovative healthcare systems in the world, increased life expectancy by 20 years (now higher than the us), implemented massive education improvements, provided homes to all citizens, and vastly reduced economic inequality.

The US stance on Cuba is incredibly warped compared to how the rest of the world views them. And we were on the way to accepting this fact and normalizing relations until Trump fucked it up.

Quote :
"I'm worried that upending the private insurance industry in this country could have all sorts of unintended consequences that we wouldn't or couldn't see coming."


On the off chance it does screw up the economy for a few years (it won't), wouldn't you prefer a few years of turmoil to your kids (and their kids) having to live with an increasingly awful and unaffordable health care system?

[Edited on February 26, 2020 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

2/26/2020 10:58:07 AM

HCH
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3815 Posts
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Quote :
"The US stance on Cuba is incredibly warped compared to how the rest of the world views them."
How about the millions of Cuban refugees who risked shark infested seas on rafts made of garbage cans, just to escape the utopia that isCuba. Please explain how their stance is incredibly warped.

2/26/2020 3:17:43 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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Big surprise that people living in a developing third world country would want to leave when offered huge incentives. Not everyone is a committed revolutionary in times of struggle and hardship. Especially upper and middle class Cubans who were a large portion of refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_feet,_dry_feet_policy

There would have been fewer refugees if the US had not, for decades, attempted to sabotage their government and economy.

2/26/2020 3:31:39 PM

HCH
All American
3815 Posts
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So the experiences of millions of Cubans are irrelevant because your Marxist propaganda. That's not in any way racist.

2/26/2020 3:55:20 PM

thegoodlife3
All American
35879 Posts
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the whole non-issue of what Bernie said is dumb, but this:

Quote :
" Big surprise that people living in a developing third world country would want to leave when offered huge incentives."


is fucking gross

people were being murdered, for fucks sake

2/26/2020 4:01:53 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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Cubans were massively better off under Castro than the far more murderous Batista government. The only reason there were more immigrants under Castro is because the US allowed it and encouraged it.

2/26/2020 4:08:06 PM

horosho
All American
1538 Posts
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We just recently tortured people here in the US.

2/26/2020 4:08:12 PM

HCH
All American
3815 Posts
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Ah yes, who can forget the mass US immigration to Cuba.

I love when brutal dictators are mentioned on TWW. It really shows the communists' true colors.

2/26/2020 4:15:32 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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The standard we hold Cuba to when the US was doing magnitudes worse in the 50s-70s is just hilarious, especially coming from right wingers who still defend the Korean and Vietnam wars. And liberals like TGL are more than happy to play bat for disingenuous reactionaries like ^

[Edited on February 26, 2020 at 4:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/26/2020 4:16:15 PM

HCH
All American
3815 Posts
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Ah yes, who can forget the mass US immigration to Cuba in the 60s to escape the oppressive JFK regime.

2/26/2020 4:18:41 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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Much better to live in the US than be its target.

2/26/2020 4:22:00 PM

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