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JesusHChrist
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I think that's probably true. But the question still remains whether strengthening the minority voice within the minority party that represents the majority opinion of the public is a viable method for implementing the change they advocate for. Cue the Marx quote, "the goal is not to understand the world, the goal is to change it"

[Edited on April 9, 2020 at 12:21 AM. Reason : ]

4/9/2020 12:18:27 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Because I'll be honest with you, I don't think the change that is desperately needed to help working people can reasonably be achieved via electoral reforms."


I'm halfway with you. I think actual electoral reform would go a long way to fixing the problem by diminishing the power of entrenched political machines, so to me it is a tool to achieving the changes needed (even if one takes a more extreme view of what those changes are than I do, which presumably applies to you).

That said, I agree that getting to electoral reforms through participation in the current electoral process is a major uphill battle, one which probably can't be won without some kind of organization and action outside of that process. You view this primarily as a class struggle requiring the organization of labor, and I would tend to take a broader view, but the basic premise is the same, so hell, I agree with you.

4/9/2020 8:22:53 AM

JesusHChrist
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it's one thing to continually lose elections to republicans who have gerrymandered, court-stacked, manipulated the media to promote propagandist views, and used multiple levels of voter suppression to undermine a democracy.

But it's quite another when the party that ostensibly claims to represent the broader left begins deploying some of those same tactics.

So if you want to gain institutional control to restore some of those electoral safeguards of democracy, then the question must to be asked: How do you first achieve that power?

Because if you can't first achieve power vis a vis the traditional modes that have been intentionally hollowed out and manipulated specifically to undermine its purpose, then you are really only left with the option of seizing power via non-traditional paths.

And in a moment where there are roughly 20 million recently unemployed workers who have lost their healthcare during a fucking plague that was previously tied to employment (through no fault of their own), the opportunity to organize a workforce that is legitimately scared for their future is the least radical option for extracting concessions from the power elite.

4/9/2020 2:57:14 PM

horosho
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https://twitter.com/ryanobles/status/1247927758812000258

4/9/2020 7:54:51 PM

horosho
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I get it if you have your belief that the left must work through the democratic party or even if you think the democratic party is the lesser evil but why do you have to demonize someone just because they think working with the democratic party isn't a wise course.

Not many people in this country can disagree anymore without thinking the person they disagree with has bad intentions and here we see it. Anyone who thinks Bernie made a mistake running with the DNC is automatically bad for the left.

4/13/2020 8:20:37 AM

daaave
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Who are you even talking to?

4/13/2020 9:55:18 AM

horosho
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Anyone who has ever accused people who see and/or do things differently or take a course of action they don't agree with as being "bad for the left". As if they have a crystal ball and are oracle of all things left. So yeah. That includes you, the "vote blue no matter who" crowd, and many other people on this site.

4/13/2020 10:03:27 AM

NyM410
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There are people on earth that actually think Bernie made a mistake running for POTUS in the Dem primary? Like, these people actually exist?

I don’t care if you would never vote for a centrist Dem. I think that has one outcome which is helping Trump, but that is a decision each person makes for themself.

But to think that Bernie’s message and policies would have gotten the same attention (and results, tbh) outside of the party structure is literally insane. He’d be treated like a bad joke like Jill Stein is and not like a legitimate source of leftist power that he clearly is.

4/13/2020 10:04:22 AM

daaave
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Can I just note that this guy knocked doors for Bernie in 2016? Like I said before, no salient point, no consistent message, only contrarianism that serves to dull any effect Bernie has had by running within the Democratic Party. Also automatically lol at any leftist who trades stocks.

4/13/2020 10:12:46 AM

horosho
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Quote :
"There are people on earth that actually think Bernie made a mistake running for POTUS in the Dem primary? Like, these people actually exist?"

Yeah, there are multiple parties of people who think this.

Quote :
"But to think that Bernie’s message and policies would have gotten the same attention (and results, tbh) outside of the party structure is literally insane. He’d be treated like a bad joke like Jill Stein is and not like a legitimate source of leftist power that he clearly is."

I'm talking about 2020, not 2016 and I'm not saying its an easy choice but we already went down that road once. It should have been clear after 2016 that the DNC wasn't going to let it happen.
Quote :
"Can I just note that this guy knocked doors for Bernie in 2016?"

This is a personal attack insinuating I would not be professional and would inject my own views about the party into the campaign.
Quote :
"Like I said before, no salient point, no consistent message"

Wel you missed it so let me restate it. We have two parties and one political system ran by lobbyists and corporate influence. I oppose that system politically. In order to successfully oppose that system, I oppose any scapegoating of either party or sole individual as the source of blame for the problems the system has created/enabled.

Everything else is an extension of that.
Quote :
" contrarianism "

Just because you and the people around you disagree with something, doesn't mean it is contrarian. That is a slur used by the system to shame anyone with different ideas into falling in line. I actually believe that the above paragraph would be popular if everyone had the same information I have. The problem is that the system has conditioned people to believe in it and perpetuate it.
Quote :
"Also automatically lol at any leftist who trades stocks."

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

4/13/2020 11:17:57 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"This is a personal attack insinuating I would not be professional and would inject my own views about the party into the campaign."


No, it's a comment in reference to this statement:

Quote :
"I get it if you have your belief that the left must work through the democratic party or even if you think the democratic party is the lesser evil but why do you have to demonize someone just because they think working with the democratic party isn't a wise course. "


I could also reference your hundreds of comments in the Democratic primary and Bernie 2020 threads. You will contradict beliefs you held a month ago if it allows you to make some Enlightened Statement about politics that you secretly knew all along. Pure, shameless, contrarianism.

[Edited on April 13, 2020 at 11:42 AM. Reason : .]

4/13/2020 11:40:40 AM

horosho
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Where did I say I secretly knew all along? I definitely bought into the hype and believed because I wanted to believe and it was easier/more convenient to believe than not to. How can you claim its contrarian when I made the more popular of the two choice two cycles in a row? Of course its shameless because it was a difficult choice and I made the mistake when I SHOULD HAVE known all along what would happen. I can see that clearly after the fact. Failure should always lead you to contradicting your beliefs from a month ago. Your meth lab exploding should make you realize selling meth was never a good idea. A month ago you "secretly" knew the risk but now its real.

Its called learning.

Quote :
"
"Also automatically lol at any leftist who trades stocks.""




[Edited on April 13, 2020 at 1:09 PM. Reason : still waiting on that]

4/13/2020 1:00:41 PM

StTexan
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Bernie officially endorses biden

4/13/2020 2:28:55 PM

daaave
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^^
shouldn't need to explain this to you and i'm not going to. also just remembered you're a landlord too. good god.

https://thewolfweb.com/message_search.aspx?type=posts&searchstring=airbnb&username=horosho

4/13/2020 2:37:09 PM

horosho
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Its like you are being intentionally opaque about this. I need you to explain it because as someone who was born in the USA, I'd like know from the bearer of superior leftist values, how and why you pick and choose what ethical consumption looks like under capitalism.

[Edited on April 13, 2020 at 2:55 PM. Reason : also wondering what "auto lol" means. what does this say about me? am I a hypocrit? ]

4/13/2020 2:52:19 PM

daaave
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You are profiting by buying and selling portions of stolen labor value. Do you need me to also explain why a socialist shouldn't be a landlord? This is seriously basic stuff. It's almost like you have no logical moral framework and you're entirely full of shit!

4/13/2020 3:09:14 PM

bbehe
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Bernie endorses Biden

4/13/2020 3:16:26 PM

horosho
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I don't believe there is any such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. I could stop paying my taxes and try to live off the grid with goods only I produced but that would likely end up with me dead or in jail.

You are pointing to things I do and saying "no socialist should do that" but you haven't explained what a socialist living in a capitalist country can actually do other than just starve. You have given no solution. Who is the contrarian here?

and guess who also buys and sells stolen labor.
https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/assets/Bernie-Sanders?cid=N00000528&year=2014


[Edited on April 13, 2020 at 3:23 PM. Reason : owning 1 house and renting it at 60% of market value to break even makes me a "landlord"]

4/13/2020 3:22:08 PM

LoneSnark
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Yep. Daave would presumably also think me, a libertarian, should go off and starve in the woods since I think taxes are a bit too high.

We have to live under the rules we have. We should and do advocate for the rules we want, but that has almost no bearing on the rules we have or how we should choose to live or not under them.

4/13/2020 3:30:18 PM

daaave
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^^
"No ethical consumption under capitalism" applies to consumption, not exploitation. If you can't imagine a way to make a living without exploiting people, idk what to tell you?

Good effort with the Bernie thing, but a long term retirement fund is not the same as shorting the market and exploiting ups and downs.

Quote :
"owning 1 house and renting it at 60% of market value to break even makes me a "landlord""


You aren't "breaking even", you're building equity by leeching rent. You're a landlord.

4/13/2020 3:47:22 PM

bbehe
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Dave, what do you do for a living

4/13/2020 3:55:04 PM

horosho
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Making a living gets me through month to month but it doesn't get me security for the future. The moment I lose my ability to work, I'd be headed for the street with no healthcare.

How is a millionaire who currently makes 174k and is guaranteed an 80% lifetime pension plus lifetime healthcare stealing labor for a retirement fund fine but a working class person just trying to catch up on retirement savings and someday maybe afford a family is "entirely full of shit".

How is owning two homes keeping one empty ok but owning one home and renting it out at 60% is "entirely full of shit". Trust me I get it the rent problem but I am also a renter and would love it if someone rented a place to me at 60% the market value I pay now. If I leave the house empty, they pay more to a real landlord and it benefits no one.

My measly participation in the system doesn't influence the existence of the system. Me taking a vow of poverty wouldn't accomplish anything other depriving my own health as well as the health and education of my future kids.

4/13/2020 4:26:49 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Bernie endorses Biden"


Bernie will probably stump for Biden as much as he did Hillary, and if Biden loses, he'll once again be blamed for not securing the the left/youth votes. The DNC will throw a few table scraps to the left (lowering medicare by 5 years) and then brow-beat the left into voting for them by presenting the very real threat of 4 more years of Trumpism.

Absolute shit deal for the left. Electoral politics are (for now) the most effective way of elevating a progressive platform, but it really is a dead-end if the end goal is to implement that platform rather than just raise the profile. The left needs to re-calibrate its approach to political activism, and this moment in time will set the course for how the left allocates its man-hours.

4/13/2020 5:52:52 PM

bbehe
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I think Bernie is way more sincere endorsing Biden than he was Clinton. Biden and Bernie are forming 6 joint groups with members from both campaigns to formulate policy. Bernie is also endorsing Biden much, much sooner than he did with Clinton.


I do think there will be no appeasing some people (just take a look at reddit) and some people will sit out. However, I think that's on Biden if he loses

4/13/2020 6:47:23 PM

NyM410
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No one really liked Clinton on a personal level, least of all Sanders.

He genuinely likes Joe Biden as a person and Biden genuinely likes him. Sometimes it’s as simple as personal relationships matter. And that is the case here.

I do hope Biden is sincere about listening and moving towards a good deal of Sanders’ policies.

4/13/2020 6:50:33 PM

rwoody
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He almost def isn't but it's good to hope

4/13/2020 9:02:41 PM

qntmfred
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Frankly all of us would be better served in elevating our personal political ideals by working to ensure like-minded candidates were elected and running the show at local and especially state levels.

[Edited on April 13, 2020 at 9:22 PM. Reason : It's more work tho. Lot more players. Lot more people to have to w through to figure out who's legit]

4/13/2020 9:21:39 PM

rwoody
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This is a pretty engaged subset of the population here. I would bet over 3/4of regular SB posters already do that

4/13/2020 9:32:52 PM

qntmfred
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Well they should focus more of their energy on that in their discussions here too then. It's like 98% national news media topics here. fucking sheep amirite

4/13/2020 9:41:05 PM

rwoody
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Okay, in light of steny Hoyer statement that the house won't be back to May 4th, I decided to contribute to his primary opponent just now

[Edited on April 13, 2020 at 10:06 PM. Reason : But also, this is a thread about Bernie? ]

4/13/2020 9:51:34 PM

horosho
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Ok well staying on the topic of landlords. How about keeping them out of the city council? In my experience with city level government, it seems like every city/town level decision has the home values as the top priority, housing crisis be damned. My city put in a ban on any new construction over two stories. You have to apply for exemption through council approval. The only projects that have gained approval have been luxury condos and commercial properties like hotels.

They also have a law where every residential building must be built with a dedicated underground parking spot. The cost of digging underground parking puts developers in a place where they have no choice but to take the luxury route.

Their excuse is that high-unit residential development contributes to traffic and environmental degradation when in reality, if you have a city that is skewed towards commercial developments being everywhere, you end up with much more traffic because workers have to drive in from all over the place. Their suppression of housing surplus has ran up home values and the cost of housing so much that none of these hotel workers or shop workers can afford to live anywhere close.

They also don't want working class people moving into the school district so that they can keep all the tax dollars for less students, padding the school system stats which makes the housing market favor sellers even more.

4/13/2020 10:10:55 PM

LoneSnark
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Landlords in local government are not themselves a problem. Houston has landlords on its councils, and yet their policies are not making housing unaffordable. What is rendering the unaffordable cities unaffordable is state level regulations imposing green-belts upon neighboring counties, starving the city of green field development land on the outskirts in an effort to fight sprawl for environmental and elitist reasons.

No doubt many landlords are in favor of such laws, but they're countered by the land-lord wanna-be's that own the land that it is currently illegal to build upon.

4/14/2020 1:04:23 PM

horosho
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but why not just fill-in the land that is already in the city and near the jobs?

4/14/2020 2:23:55 PM

horosho
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https://nypost.com/2020/04/14/obama-reportedly-convinced-bernie-sanders-to-drop-out-of-primary/
Quote :
"Former President Barack Obama had multiple long discussions with Sen. Bernie Sanders in an effort to convince him to bow out of the presidential primary, playing a significant role in the Democratic socialist’s decision-making, according to a report."

I'm sick. Obama was pulling strings throughout the entire primary all while trying to make it look like he was staying out of it until today.

4/14/2020 3:28:27 PM

A Tanzarian
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Do you need to throw up? Are you going to die?

4/14/2020 3:36:20 PM

NyM410
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The most prominent and popular democrat in the country talked to other prominent Democrats.

Let me find my fainting chair.

4/14/2020 3:47:04 PM

bbehe
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Lol, Bernie is more than capable of making a decision on his own, if he didn't want to talk to Obama, he wouldn't have

4/14/2020 3:53:00 PM

horosho
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He did the responsible thing considering the moment. That doesn't make it easier to swallow.

4/14/2020 4:35:36 PM

qntmfred
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It would be easier to swallow if he did the irresponsible thing?

4/14/2020 4:39:14 PM

StTexan
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Quote :
" Let me find my fainting chair."


Lmao, good one

4/14/2020 4:40:00 PM

horosho
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No. Dropping out when he wasn't going to win was only responsible because we have a pandemic. with no pandemic, he would have been expected to fight until the end. The endorsement was inevitable because it was part of the contract for running within the party. Thats what makes it hard to swallow. We got onto a fancy train knowing the track ended at a cliff hoping a bridge would be built during the trip and now we are over the cliff with no bridge.

4/14/2020 4:52:03 PM

TerdFerguson
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My message to lefty friends has been:

For obvious reasons, the pandemic has made the average person thirstier for progressive policy than at anytime in the last ~40 years. However, nothing seems possible because congress is garbage (even with a very successful 2020, congress will suck). To be considered successful, a Biden administration will have to get some kind of healthcare reform through congress; Biden will expend a lot of political capital on healthcare IMO. While Bernie didn't have the votes he needed, what he DOES HAVE is a very activist following. An activist following capable of changing the narrative among Democrats, well sometimes, but its the type of activism that could push some kind of compromise healthcare bill through congress. Bernie has quite a bit of leverage and he should sink his hands into the Biden campaign as hard has he possibly can.

4/14/2020 7:02:13 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Bernie has quite a bit of leverage and he should sink his hands into the Biden campaign as hard has he possibly can."


That leverage goes away when you endorse, though. Historically speaking, overtures no longer need to be made once you've secured that vote. Now, the DNC being the DNC, will likely assume that Bernie's endorsement is tantamount to securing his base of left/youth/progressive vote, and this could be a terrible miscalculation on their part. There will be some Bernie or bust types who abstain from voting in protest, or who vote 3rd party. But the real loss in numbers come in the form of those who were previously disengaged, and those who would only be energized enough to practice their franchise for someone who inspires them. Joe Biden is not that candidate. No amount of vote-shaming is going to get them to the polls.

Now, typically speaking, most incumbents lose when the economy takes a hit, which is what is currently happening, and Democratic power brokers may be relying on this. But this is a dangerous game to play, in my estimation, because a Trump like figure can always find a way to scapegoat outsiders for the problems. If he can successfully explain away the source of peoples struggles as foreign "i.e, constant referrals to the 'Chinese Virus,'" or blame immigration and foreign hoards for "infecting" Americans, then he has a non-zero chance of whipping up jingoistic and nationalistic prejudices enough to possibly withstand this. He will also try to pit local state governments against one another and use them to deflect the blame that should fall on the federal government, and has already made ominous references to his "total" power.

A competent opposition party would anticipate this, and stay on message of how this is a unique failure of the right-wing by decades of gutting social safety nets and caring about corporate profits more than the lives of workers. But the Democrats are not a competent opposition party. If Biden mostly stays hidden from view (unless they out-right replace him), then he allows for Trump to control the narrative with his daily Nuremberg rallies press conferences. And you absolutely DO NOT WANT a madman who is willing to say anything to remain in power propagandizing the country in order to frame public opinion.

[Edited on April 14, 2020 at 8:55 PM. Reason : ]

4/14/2020 8:49:00 PM

UJustWait84
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Warren endorses Biden

4/15/2020 11:29:12 AM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"but why not just fill-in the land that is already in the city and near the jobs?"

Because that land is not in use for one reason or another, otherwise it would have already been built upon. Parks, sound barriers, and infrastructure limits render lots of urban land useful to leave vacant.

However, your bigger flaw is to continue to think the "jobs" are downtown, in the vast majority of cities this is not the case. When land is developed on the outskirts, it should never be just housing. Office parks, shopping, and light industrial businesses need space too. Usually, developers attempt to develop a new region to employ about as many people as it will house. Therefore, most of the new workforce will not be commuting elsewhere in the city, but to the new business development in the same new region. Because of this, new development will usually reduce overall congestion in town by giving residents somewhere to go, rather than crowding into the already overcrowded housing stock where infrastructure is too costly to expand (road capacity, mostly).

4/15/2020 1:16:12 PM

JesusHChrist
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Can we not turn this thread into a discussion about terrible urban planning and shit awful pleads for sprawl and greenfield development? Houston is the absolute worst example of urban planning and should not be used, under any circumstance, as an example of environmental, progressive, cultural, or socioeconomically inclusive development.

4/15/2020 2:12:10 PM

LoneSnark
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This thread definitely seems the wrong place for it, sure...But since you talked about it, I have no choice but to respond. Your hate upon Houston has no basis in reality, so, keep it out of any threads. City planning that has managed to keep average commutes comparatively quick and housing affordable in a city of 2.4 million seems ungodly successful in my eyes.

4/15/2020 8:25:28 PM

JesusHChrist
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Houston is literally a textbook example (as in, it is in textbooks) of poor urban planning. Only the dullest of dullards would applaud a city that is oriented around the needs of cars rather than the needs of its people. It's vast, unchecked, and unregulated sprawl made it uniquely susceptible to the ravages of Hurricane Harvey, and will leave it vulnerable to other disasters. It's lack of zoning is notorious for creating an incoherent mess that strains resources and encourages pointless growth. There are other proven ways to minimize commute times in properly planned cities, which Houston cannot due because of its expansive and unrelenting growth. There are a million factors that go into planning a city, and your continued insistence on stressing the importance of your car commute really highlights how unqualified you are to sound off on the matter. Go brag about James Harden or JJ Watt (I suspect this one is more likely) on AM radio somewhere if you want to demonstrate pointless civic pride, because nobody gives a shit about your commute time here.

4/16/2020 12:51:15 PM

utowncha
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too bad dtr told someone to eat his balls. he loves urban planning.

4/16/2020 1:32:44 PM

UJustWait84
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I mean is Houston's urban planning even up for debate?

Texas has absolutely horrific zoning laws, and the negative consequences of such piss-poor planning are well-documented. Remember Hurricane Harvey?

4/16/2020 8:36:03 PM

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