But again, nearly all of this shit is local/state level. Biden is saying 'we will give federal funds to those police districts that are improving, transparent, aren't breaking the law'.

The Federal Government basically has a carrot and a stick, the other alternative is for Biden to say 'We will simply move in NG troops in areas where we don't believe police are effective'..which fuck that

6/10/2020 11:01:17 AM

Just noting, Biden's position essentially mirrors that of Sanders

6/10/2020 11:09:22 AM

Bernie can fuck right off imo. We're way past reform.

6/10/2020 11:11:59 AM

thank god we have people like behe with a penchant for analysis, comparison and translation when it comes to biden. its going to be super useful when he picks harris as his VP! in fact, i think the only way behe could possibly be more useful is if he harnesses his talents and takes his explanations directly to black people.

6/10/2020 11:22:22 AM

I want Trump out of office.

Biden saying 'Defund the Police' would make that extremely hard.

I've said repeatedly, Biden wasn't my candidate of choice, and for the record, Harris isn't my pick for VP either.

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM. Reason : a]

6/10/2020 11:32:36 AM

together, at last

6/10/2020 11:33:15 AM

Biden won something like 60+% of the Black vote in the primaries. Do you really think Black people need an explanation on why Biden would be a better President than any of the other choices?

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 11:38 AM. Reason : ^I laffed heartily]

6/10/2020 11:37:33 AM

^^
lol

6/10/2020 11:39:00 AM

Of course not. I'm worried about the message of 'defund the police' being used and killing turnout among non-college educated whites and older people, making it easier for Trump to win.

Fuck, none of this having to tippy toe around issues would be a problem if millennials and gen z actually turned out and voted.

6/10/2020 11:40:15 AM

Agreed. My post was actually directed toward utowncha.

6/10/2020 11:43:24 AM

The latest poll was at the beginning of the protests as far as I can tell. Regardless, here is the problem with the Democrats. No backbone, no interest in pushing forward. Polling rules over everything. If they showed some leadership and made some attempt to the sway the public toward needed reforms, maybe people would be more excited to vote for them.

Actually I take back the polling thing. Campaign funding first, then polling.

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 11:53 AM. Reason : .]

6/10/2020 11:45:12 AM

(top of page) ^And at the state/local level it doesn't work, why would it work at the fed level? Saying he has to say "defund the police" or nothing is a straw man, there is middle ground that doesn't involve promising even MORE money.

How about ending qualified immunity
How about a national no hire list for violent offenders
How about crunching down on police unions
How about overtime fraud investigations

Saying "let's keep doing the same thing, but more of it!" isn't good enough

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 12:01 PM. Reason : I think many of those are even in the House bill, mention and support them maybe?? ]

6/10/2020 11:48:34 AM

It would be extremely stupid for him to run on defund the police.

Not much upside and tons of downside.

He needs to feel people's pain but running on ^ that kinda stuff too fits into limited upside and too much downside imo.

6/10/2020 12:26:03 PM

So he shouldn't support the house bill?

What is the downside of supporting the policies I outlined? Who is against them other than actual police?

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 12:29 PM. Reason : "feeling peoples pain" is useless and empty. ]

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 12:29 PM. Reason : And I haven't seen anyone propose he runs on "defund the police" ]

6/10/2020 12:28:10 PM

What if he ran on "reducing the burden placed on police officers by reallocating functions & resources to social service departments that are trained in non-violent approaches to community service"

6/10/2020 12:37:34 PM

Honestly also, I've seen numbers that nationally we spend 115 billion in police, 300 million is nothing.

Lapd gets a billion dollars from the city, they wouldn't turn away a couple mil more from the feds but is it really an incentive?


Oh and btw it's useless to mention Bernie, he's a politician not an infallible deity. He can't bless a policy and absolve all sin. Reminds me of whne i still bothered to argue with Trumpers and they'd say "well Obama did [insert similar thing]" like it was some magic that would force me to say it was right. Politicians are tools to implement policy. Some can be really good, even heroically good, at that, or at least fighting the right fights, that's all though.

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 1:16 PM. Reason : E]

6/10/2020 12:59:04 PM

^ beat me to it

$300 million is a drop in the bucket

6/10/2020 1:08:54 PM

Quote :

"nationally we spend 115 billion in police"

how much of that is essentially Federal Jobs Guarantee expenditure

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 1:31 PM. Reason : military too]

6/10/2020 1:31:11 PM

Quote :

"Saying "let's keep doing the same thing, but more of it!" isn't good enough"

Of course it is. Anything shy of changing is name to Donald Trump is "good enough" and that point has been made crystal clear by democratic voters. Why on Earth would he (or the party leadership in general) do anything that could potentially alienate any power from the center-right when the center-left has guaranteed their vote unconditionally? It wouldn't be smart and would result in less power.

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 1:53 PM. Reason : mindlessly voting for anyone with a D next to their name leads here]

6/10/2020 1:51:19 PM

^^apologies, not completely sure what you mean. I think the 115B is mostly local money, not federal.

6/10/2020 1:58:24 PM

I was using Federal Jobs Guarantee as a euphemism for mostly unproductive busy work given to people in exchange for a salary

I'm not an ACAB kinda guy at all, but if we're gonna be spending 100B+ on something, it would be nice if it didn't look like this as much as it does.

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 2:59 PM. Reason : #NotAllCops]

6/10/2020 2:55:04 PM

Any cop who watches injustice occur without reporting it is a bad cop.

6/10/2020 4:06:23 PM

^^ah, yea that link i posted on the previous page makes a similar point about sheep/Wolves

Also this about OT

Quote :

"Source, which also introduces a firefighter who billed 5,606 hours (fifteen hours a day, every single day, of just overtime). https://t.co/DiWnmyYdrv"

https://twitter.com/hayesdavenport/status/1269161673803227137?s=19

[Edited on June 10, 2020 at 4:17 PM. Reason : E]

6/10/2020 4:16:25 PM

More on OT. Biden's bump could almost cover NYCs OT

Quote :

"NYPD salaries sorted by overtime pay https://t.co/58FcDq9jU2"

Quote :

"To clarify a few things: 1) As far as I know, the OT column is *additional* pay to "Gross Paid" 2) Full data set here: https://t.co/jjauxnDGJT 3) Total OT paid in 2019 to NYPD with the words "police officer" in their title: $315,323,098 4) https://t.co/EuBxpOQw9m"

6/11/2020 8:43:54 AM

You know what would solve a lot of these corruption issues at state and local levels? People fucking voting in local and state elections.

6/11/2020 9:46:18 AM

In primaries maybe. Also need to have a candidate willing to fight first.

6/11/2020 10:03:41 AM

^^^^^^see this is where I get lost. Even after crooked ass cop does crooked ass shit, the person takes a swing. What does that person expect after that? They should make all high school kids google “what to say to cops” and write a report before graduating.

6/13/2020 3:17:37 AM

Quote :

"It would be extremely stupid for him to run on defund the police."

Quote :

"What if he ran on "reducing the burden placed on police officers by reallocating functions & resources to social service departments that are trained in non-violent approaches to community service""

follow up:

https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1272042192572473344

Quote :

"Would you favor or oppose gradually redirecting police funding toward increasing the number of social workers, drug counselors and mental health experts responsible for responding to non-violent emergencies? Favor 49% Oppose 30%"

[Edited on June 15, 2020 at 6:26 PM. Reason : .]

6/15/2020 6:25:35 PM

And look at the polling for how the phrase 'defund the police' polls in that same poll. It's radically different.

6/15/2020 6:47:44 PM

Yes the point is that wording matters and Democrats could drum up support for so many policies by framing them in a way that is palatable to the average person. But they’re bought and/or cowards.

“Defund the police” is the same thing as the definition above. Biden could easily run on this policy, but he won’t.

[Edited on June 15, 2020 at 7:10 PM. Reason : ..]

6/15/2020 7:07:45 PM

Again, state/local policy vs federal.

6/15/2020 7:33:37 PM

You don't think the president has major influence on local/state democratic policy??

[Edited on June 15, 2020 at 7:43 PM. Reason : Not to mention federal funding which was discussed all over this page]

6/15/2020 7:43:28 PM

Seriously, maybe you should spend more time getting Millennials/Gen Z to show up in off cycle elections, turn out are ABYSMAL and that's where the people who set police policies are generally elected.

6/15/2020 7:43:56 PM

I think Mayor Smith and Police Chief Jones of small town USA have way more say than Presidents when it comes to local policing.

6/15/2020 7:46:24 PM

That's two deflections. But
1) its ALSO Biden's job to get those demos to vote
2) evne if locals have more influence, the bully pulpit has a major effect. In a primary a candidate saying "I support _____ like the president" and presidential endorsements matter.

It's OK to just say you don't like the policy or you think it will make him lose despite polling.

6/15/2020 8:32:14 PM

And you keep and daaaave keep deflecting by just saying it isn't mostly a local/state issue. Blaming Biden for poor voter turnout in those elections is just silly.

The most effective way to change things is voting in every election. Should we have a 'General Under 35 voter credibility watch' thread?

6/15/2020 8:55:08 PM

Quote :

"just saying it isn't mostly a local/state issue."

False. At least for me

Quote :

"Blaming Biden for poor voter turnout in those elections is just silly."

He obv wasn't to blame in the past but if he wins and turnout is low in two years he will obviously share the blame. One of the jobs of the national party is to work to turn out the vote, and he is the leader of the party.

And, btw, as I pointed out, voting alone won't solve shit until we have candidates willing to push this policy. Incumbents mostly won't take that risk without support/cover, and new candidates will struggle more for viability if the party is against that policy.

All that said we aren't deflecting bc this is the "Biden credibility watch", as you say, not the millennial voter cred watch.

Your arguments for not running on defund the police (the policy if not the catchphrase) are that a) its unpopular which Daaaves poll disputes, and b) that it's mostly local, which discounts Biden's influence and ignores what spawned this whole discussion, him promising MORE national funding.

6/15/2020 9:13:00 PM

Quote :

"Your arguments for not running on defund the police (the policy if not the catchphrase) are that a) its unpopular which Daaaves poll disputes,"

I've only been arguing the phrase, the first time I brought it up in this thread was

Quote :

" 'Defunding the Police' as vague as it is, polls at a massive 16%"

And in other threads I make mention that's it's nebulous and vague. I've put the phrase in quotes pretty much every time I've used it.

Biden has said he doesn't want to give federal funds to police departments which aren't being transparent or are violating federal policy, I support that! Biden is basically saying 'if police departments don't play ball, they don't get money'. Great! He's saying in a way that can't easily be weaponized against him by people who just read headlines.

6/15/2020 9:20:01 PM

Quote :

"Would you favor or oppose gradually redirecting police funding toward increasing the number of social workers, drug counselors and mental health experts responsible for responding to non-violent emergencies"

So you're OK with with biden running on this policy without the phrase?

A grand total of zeros people have said he should run on the phrase "defund the police" so you've arguing with yourself there.

6/15/2020 9:27:41 PM

Love to see “states’ rights” being used to excuse Biden’s dismal policy stance on police brutality. True allyship right there.

6/15/2020 10:14:45 PM

^ You're a special kinda of stupid aren't you?

From Biden's interview with Trevor Noah

Quote :

"Biden said previously he doesn't favor defunding the police force, but instead promotes police reform. "What does that actually mean?" Noah asked. "Because some people think that you cannot reform an institution that is fundamentally rotten in the core." "Well, I don't think it's rotten in the core," Biden responded. "And I don't think all cops are bad cops, but I think... Look, 90 percent of all the funding for the police comes from local taxpayers. So, the federal government under our system cannot, other than taking a civil rights action, say they do A, B, C, and D. But what we can do is we can make sure we insist [that] certain fundamental changes take place now, including making sure there's sensitivity training, making sure that all of cops' past transgressions are all made public. Because we can say, if you don't, we're not gonna provide the federal funding that we provide for you through what we call Byrne grants and cop grants." Biden mentioned other stipulations for police, such as “a national use of force standard” and a mandatory reporting of misconduct to the Justice Department. Noah then posed whether trained officials other than police should respond to situations like mental health crises and drug abuse. Biden mentioned his daughter, a social worker, in saying he doesn't think she should respond to drug abuse 9-1-1 calls by herself, but feels police should be treated "second in those circumstances" and arrive on scene with trained specialists. "We should change the way in which we deal with all drug abuse," he said. "Nobody should be going to jail for the use of drugs. They should be going to mandatory rehabilitation. We should be building more rehab centers, not prisons." Though Biden didn't use a lot of the phrasing around "defund the police," he came around to saying, "I think we should turn over as much as we can to non-armed police officers to de-escalate things related to mental illness, homelessness, and drug abuse"

That's great. That's what I support.

6/16/2020 8:11:59 AM

Did he go back on his "300 million more"? If so, then that last statement especially seems like a step in the right direction, but still a long way to go. If not then it's basically just more of the same. "reform" as a buzz word to avoid real change.

6/16/2020 9:19:59 AM

The 300 million is only in the context of the COPS program which is basically only guides, training programs, and other grants. A lot of that is community outreach, deesclation programs, etc

I don't have the breakdown of what money goes where with that, but I'm pretty confident none of that money is used for arming police.

6/16/2020 9:26:40 AM

I don't care about color of money bs, the last thing police need is MORE money, it's a step in the wrong direction.

6/16/2020 9:28:54 AM

I mean, it's a semantic thing of where the funding comes in, right? Like suppose we want to send a counselor to domestic disturbance calls or mental health professionals to homelessness related calls (both of these I support), which department is responsible for sending people out? Who gets that funding? Does sending a cop as backup to the counselor change that?

Really though, 300 million is a drop in the bucket, like you said, it could barely cover the OT in NY. I see it as more of creating guides and resources to help guide departments and states on how to make these changes in their departments.

6/16/2020 9:35:15 AM

Quote :

"A grand total of zeros people have said he should run on the phrase "defund the police" so you've arguing with yourself there"

Lol

6/16/2020 9:43:16 AM

^^Yea agree, but I don't think that should be under the police department. There should be independent social worker organizations. I'd worry if you out that under the police you'll end up with the same hammer/nail problem

And the funding being a drop is just another reason not to run on that. It won't achieve any of your goals and it sends the wrong message. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he might be dropping that talking point until I see it again. (i haven't checked his site)

6/16/2020 10:06:17 AM

I mean, maybe the solution is just to move the police departments of most major cities under the purview of Health and Human Services? I honestly don't know how most cities are laid out in an org chart. I know that it varies drastically across the country.

6/16/2020 10:21:53 AM

Yea there just needs to be some separation of powers/oversight, so to speak. I'm open to options

6/16/2020 10:55:33 AM

Right, which is my whole point. Biden recognizes there is an issue and I think the messaging is out there on what sort of reforms he sees at the federal level (The Trevor Noah interview was good imho). I think it's EXTREMELY hard for the federal government to say 'You should model your local and state police force like this'. Every single city and state is different, each are in various states of needing reform. They all need reform, but maybe City A should prioritize X and Y, but City B really needs to drop everything and focus on issue Z.

I think it's hard for the federal government to recommend anything but broad brush strokes of what Biden said when he said ' "I think we should turn over as much as we can to non-armed police officers to de-escalate things related to mental illness, homelessness, and drug abuse"'.

Every department should have a public record of complains against officers, public record of investigations, body cams, access to de-esclation training and resources to expand community efforts in the form of mental health resources, outreach programs, etc. Biden seems 100% for this, which I support.

Dave is taking this as 'HUR DUR STATES RIGHTS'

[Edited on June 16, 2020 at 11:10 AM. Reason : a]

6/16/2020 11:09:28 AM